Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

[Virgo]

The statements that you make speaks of aversion towards mundane life. If you want to become a Monk simply because you have aversion to mundane life......you are going in the wrong direction.

Who are we to judge which is the right or the wrong direction?

You mean aversion is wholesome?

[Sokehi]

I say being disenchanted with the world is wholesome.

[Virgo]

I say being disenchanted with the world is wholesome.

So when it is because of wisdom then it is wholesome, but aversion is not the path, wisdom is.

Kevin

[Sokehi]

I say being disenchanted with the world is wholesome.

So when it is because of wisdom then it is wholesome, but aversion is not the path, wisdom is.

Kevin

I found ven. Pesalas comments here very clarifying on that matter

[Virgo]

I found ven. Pesalas comments here very clarifying on that matter

There are mixed motivations when we do things that are wholesome and when we do things unwholesome. Why? because billions of cittas arise and fall away in a second.

The point is to have more understanding of our defilements. That is all I was getting at.

Kevin

[indian_buddhist]

The statements that you make speaks of aversion towards mundane life. If you want to become a Monk simply because you have aversion to mundane life......you are going in the wrong direction.

Who are we to judge which is the right or the wrong direction? We have to see for ourselves. I wouldn't go in the way and advise someone developed the aspiration to go forth to not do it, to raise doubts or to strenghten doubts that have already arisen... out of my own way, out of my own view on things, possibly out of ones own aversion towards the holy life or ones own doubt if certain monks have chosen to go forth for "wrong reasons". It's his khamma and I wish him well. If he becomes a monk and then practices accordingly, this is very good. If he will remain living the householders life, practicing dhamma, being a loving and caring husband and son, this is very good too.

Ive already posted earlier, I say again. Buddhism is not about deciding whether to be a Monk or Layman. Buddhism is about walking the 8 fold noble path. The 8 fold noble path is both for Monks and Layman alike. If someone is disenchanted with the world sure he can become a Monk. But before that he needs to evaluate certain things like:-
1. Does he have a wife .
2. Is he in Debt with someone.
3. Does he have parents approval.

But the person who has posted this has said:-
1. He is recently married with a loving wife.
2. His parents are not particularly happy with his decision.

Further the various posts he has made, he shows an Aversion towards mundane life. I am sorry but Aversion is not 8 fold path.

There is a DIFFERENCE between being Disenchanted and being averse towards Mundane life. One can be disenchanted and still lead a Mundane life easily following the 8 fold noble path. He can follow the path and do his duty towards his parents and wife. He does not need to leave them alone (wife and parents) just to follow the path.

Buddha was justified to leave behind his wife and children because someone had to Rediscover the path. The poster has no such lofty goals. He merely has to follow the path.

[happylotus1]

1. Do you suffer from leprosy?
If you do, answer 'Yes, Venerable Sir', if you do not, answer 'No, Venerable Sir'.
2. Have you got boils?
3. Have you got eczema?
4. Have you got tuberculosis?
5. Do you get epilepsy?
6. Are you a human being?
7. Are you a man?
8. Are you a free man?
9. Are you free from government service?
10. Have you got your parents' permission to be ordained?
11. Have you a set of three robes and an almsbowl?
12. What is your name? (My name is Naga.)
13. What is your preceptor's name? (My preceptor's name is Venerable Tissa.)

The buddha set the standard set of questions to be asked for a prospective monk. Although from a humanistic point of view, one can ask his wife's permission to become a monk, it is not absolutely required from the standard set of questions from prospective monk's perspective. It certainly does not mean that one is authorized to disrespect her without taking her into consideration.

When assessing meditation practice in my lay-life, I found that it is very hard to get time for seclusive retreat. I am specially inclined to the monk's life for its far wide ranging opportunity of seclusion as compared to a lay life. The reason for my interest of becoming a monk is that I have a strong penchant for a reclusive life where one can live his life in seclusion amidst forest and nature with a far wide ranging ability for sense restraints.

There is a DIFFERENCE between being Disenchanted and being averse towards Mundane life. One can be disenchanted and still lead a Mundane life easily following the 8 fold noble path. He can follow the path and do his duty towards his parents and wife. He does not need to leave them alone (wife and parents) just to follow the path.

I have been disenchanted towards mundane life for a fairly long time. That is why I have been following the path for more than 10 years as a lay person attending many meditation retreats, visiting buddha related places, reading dhamma books since I first heard the teaching. I simply understand there can not be love for both life: Mudane life and reclusive life. I have to choose one at a single time.

I am not leaving them alone as there will be wife and parents in my family Just I will be alone.

Buddha was justified to leave behind his wife and children because someone had to Rediscover the path. The poster has no such lofty goals. He merely has to follow the path.

You mean "sangha", community of monks are not justified, as they merely has to follow the path?

[indian_buddhist]

happylotus1

In the end you should do what makes you happy. If ordaining makes you happy then go ahead - It wont be unwholesome IMO if you reach your destination (i.e; various stages of enlightenment).

all the best to you.

[happylotus1]

Hello friends,

I am still strongly looking for ordination but the situation is not that favorable. Recently, I visited Na Uyana and stayed there for about 3 months. I went there with a wish to ordain but the parental insistence and unhappiness along with some visa issue made me revert back to worldly life. Staying in such a peaceful place, seeing and experiencing monk's life made me more attracted towards the monastic life. What I am feeling now is that the marriage I have done is the biggest obstacle to the path of monkhood. Because monastery needs a support letter from wife which is very difficult to get for me. Foolish me....

Now I am in a mindset that I will join monkhood without hurting anybody in mental level so i am looking to join monkhood when there is favorable situation. i.e. Parents and wife give permission happily....(Although there is very thin chance for that) There I met many wonderful friends around the world intending upon ordination and some of them ordained recently which is very inspiring to see (seeing lay men who were once lay friends converted into monks- members of Sangha).

Just sharing my experiences how difficult is to get ordain life. Previously in early age, I used to think that whatever I want I will do...But...for ordination it is not the case. I started thinking to ordain when I was 24 years and 10 years have already passed without realizing my inner desire to get fulfilled. Instead, new situations being created that lead to more hurdles and obstacles in the path of monkhood.

I have made a photo video of Na Uyana forest monastery and uploaded to youtube. Please watch it if you want to see what Na Uyana monastery looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNwz0T3 ... -D4eRxYu2b

Metta to all,

[Modus.Ponens]

Hello friends,

I am still strongly looking for ordination but the situation is not that favorable. Recently, I visited Na Uyana and stayed there for about 3 months. I went there with a wish to ordain but the parental insistence and unhappiness along with some visa issue made me revert back to worldly life. Staying in such a peaceful place, seeing and experiencing monk's life made me more attracted towards the monastic life. What I am feeling now is that the marriage I have done is the biggest obstacle to the path of monkhood. Because monastery needs a support letter from wife which is very difficult to get for me. Foolish me....

Now I am in a mindset that I will join monkhood without hurting anybody in mental level so i am looking to join monkhood when there is favorable situation. i.e. Parents and wife give permission happily....(Although there is very thin chance for that) There I met many wonderful friends around the world intending upon ordination and some of them ordained recently which is very inspiring to see (seeing lay men who were once lay friends converted into monks- members of Sangha).

Just sharing my experiences how difficult is to get ordain life. Previously in early age, I used to think that whatever I want I will do...But...for ordination it is not the case. I started thinking to ordain when I was 24 years and 10 years have already passed without realizing my inner desire to get fulfilled. Instead, new situations being created that lead to more hurdles and obstacles in the path of monkhood.

I have made a photo video of Na Uyana forest monastery and uploaded to youtube. Please watch it if you want to see what Na Uyana monastery looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNwz0T3 ... -D4eRxYu2b

Metta to all,

Hello.

Regarding the recent post: Have you seriously pondered to go to a monastary, but live with the status of anagarika? You can live with the outer status of anagarika but practice the bhikkhu rules as well as you would if you were ordained. As far as I know there are monasteries that acomodate anagarikas for free. I'm sure there are other important things about being a bhikkhu, but what seems the most important for the training is to follow the lifestyle, not to have the title itself.
I know it's cliche to say not to pay attention to labels and titles, so I'm sorry for that. But in this case, the title "bhikkhu" seems secondary to the training itself of the bhikkhu. I'm not downplaying the importance of bhikkhus. I'm just pointing out that following the bhikkhu lifestyle is the most important thing about being a bhikkhu, imho.
If you are so enthusiastic about this lifestyle, adopt it, but to the extent of your possibilities.

Regarding the original post: When you love a woman, there is an aspect of that love that is similar to metta. And there's an aspect of that love that is sexual craving. One is wholesome, the other is not. So basicaly it's always mixed. It's impossible not to be mixed, really. So, when you want to ordain, there's an aspect of renunciation that aspires to be free of suffering and live happily. There's also an aspect of "grief for the world", of aversion to people, situations, etc. So basicaly it's always mixed. And it's impossible not to be mixed.

Be well.

[happylotus1]

Hello Modus Ponens,

Thank you for your postreply

Yes, I have seriously pondered to go to a monastary to live as an anagarika but for now I am reverted back to normal daily life due to the reasons posted earlier. My approach of following the dhamma is you suggested "If you are so enthusiastic about this lifestyle, adopt it, but to the extent of your possibilities". However, as my experience tells me, it is very difficult to follow even eight precepts in my normal daily life whereas in monastic environment it is much more easier to follow. That is why I am inclined to live in monastic environment. Yes I also know some monasteries that accommodates anagarikas for free. One of them is Na Uyana where I stayed for 3 months. You are right what seems the most important for the training is to follow the lifestyle, not to have the title itself. But as I understand, the title makes ones life much easier as it gives freedom to individual from all wordly responsibilities. So I think the title is important for me where many people surrounding me have many expectations from me to involve in worldly affairs. The title and associating rules will give me the opportunity to cut off that ties that results in freedom from people's expectations and their worldly wishes regarding me. Imagine a Bhikkhu in a robe, how much will he involve in worldly affairs? Almost none...but imagine a lay person in whatever titles....he is bound to have some or other worldly affairs. So I think wearing a robe is not only a symbol of renunciation but also a privilege of being more free.

Kind regards

[Modus.Ponens]

Yes, you are right. Being a bhikkhu is not just a title. I tried to convey that idea too. But the trade off here is that you have to give up the fullest commitment of a bhikkhu, and the associated advantages, because you don't have your wife's permission. But you get to be an anagarika.

It's a middle way solution for the problem. You can't get ordained. And you can't live your life miserable because of an imposed marriage. These two things you do know, right? If you fully accept these two things, at least you'll be on your way to a better decision.

[happylotus1]

Thank you.Now I got what you meant. It seems that my problem is jumping directly towards bhikkhuhood without passing the transition phase i.e. anagarika. Thank you for opening my eyes. Next time my approach is to remain anagarika for a length of time and try to see how things move on.

[Anagarika]

It's easier to be an Anagarika in a Wat, but it may be a good training period for you to live on eight precepts while you are at your home, if you are able to do so.

My concern from your first letter was your wife. Has she evolved to understand that you are seeking to live a renunciate life, or are you now living with her as husband and wife? I would tend to believe that being married to a young woman and rejecting her over time by withdrawing from her is not bright kamma, and you may need to make a decision about your life and be fair to her in the process. She likely wishes to have children, and if that's not on your agenda, then cut the ties with her gracefully and let her move on.

Once you've settled your relationship, you can live the eight precepts on a permanent basis, and see if you can keep these precepts in the lay world. It's not easy to do (celibacy, not eating after midday, sleeping on a low bed/mat, avoiding entertainments) but the Anagarika life is, at least for me, a training path that is well short of the 227 rules, but is a renunciate training in and of itself. You can drive a car (and drive the monks around), cook food, and handle money. There's a duty to be supportive of the monks and the Wat beyond dana, which I enjoy. As a well known Bhikkhu recently described a noted Sri Lankan Anagarika from years past: you're a "half-mad, half-monk." Works for me.

If you can handle eight precepts in lay life, you will then segue into samanera ordination (10 precepts) in a Wat easily. Then, on to Bhikkhu ordination.

[Modus.Ponens]

It's easier to be an Anagarika in a Wat, but it may be a good training period for you to live on eight precepts while you are at your home, if you are able to do so.

My concern from your first letter was your wife. Has she evolved to understand that you are seeking to live a renunciate life, or are you now living with her as husband and wife? I would tend to believe that being married to a young woman and rejecting her over time by withdrawing from her is not bright kamma, and you may need to make a decision about your life and be fair to her in the process. She likely wishes to have children, and if that's not on your agenda, then cut the ties with her gracefully and let her move on.

Once you've settled your relationship, you can live the eight precepts on a permanent basis, and see if you can keep these precepts in the lay world. It's not easy to do (celibacy, not eating after midday, sleeping on a low bed/mat, avoiding entertainments) but the Anagarika life is, at least for me, a training path that is well short of the 227 rules, but is a renunciate training in and of itself. You can drive a car (and drive the monks around), cook food, and handle money. There's a duty to be supportive of the monks and the Wat beyond dana, which I enjoy. As a well known Bhikkhu recently described a noted Sri Lankan Anagarika from years past: you're a "half-mad, half-monk." Works for me.

If you can handle eight precepts in lay life, you will then segue into samanera ordination (10 precepts) in a Wat easily. Then, on to Bhikkhu ordination.

Thank you for also giving your advice to happylotus1. I was afraid I was being heartless and you said what needed to be said in benefit of his wife.

Yes, she also needs to be aware of the truth. And if she wants children, it's best that she knows the truth soon, so that she will be able to also have her own life as she best desires, given the situation.