Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

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santa100
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by santa100 »

indian_buddhist wrote:can vinnana simply be called awareness?.....iI looks like to be more subtle than perception.

suppose we drink alcohol I guess the most important thing which will be affected is vinnana ? correct me if my understanding of vinnana is wrong..
Vinnana is rendered with various terms like consciousness, mind, discernment, awareness.. depending on the context of the particular sutta. As mentioned, vinnana doesn't operate alone and independent of the other aggregates. Consuming liquor will affect all the aggregates in a negative fashion: the Form is weak and sickly, the Feeling of pleasure is fed, the Perception further identifes/recognizes with stronger and more harmful liquor, the Volitional Formation of wanting more and more is re-enforced and turning into habit energy that is tougher to get rid of over time, the Consciousness awares and in working together with the aggregates seeking the formation of another body and mind (see Dependent Origination ) in a next life to continue this sensual indulgence.
SarathW
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by SarathW »

Spiny Norman wrote:
SarathW wrote:
"Feeling, perception, & consciousness, friend: Are these qualities conjoined or disjoined? Is it possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them?"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Yes, thanks, I'm familiar with that quote. I find it a bit puzzling though, given that consciousness, perception and feeling are repeatedly delineated in the suttas. If these 3 aggregates really can't be separated, they why did the Buddha bother to list them separately on so many occasions in the suttas?
Why not just a single term to cover the 3 combined?
That is how we teach things, by separate them into categories.
We should not bog down in categories though. :)

Our tendency is to get lost in the categories:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19225
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by Spiny Norman »

SarathW wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: Yes, thanks, I'm familiar with that quote. I find it a bit puzzling though, given that consciousness, perception and feeling are repeatedly delineated in the suttas. If these 3 aggregates really can't be separated, they why did the Buddha bother to list them separately on so many occasions in the suttas?
Why not just a single term to cover the 3 combined?
That is how we teach things, by separate them into categories.
We should not bog down in categories though. :)
I agree, but I don't think this really answers the question I posed. If consciousness, perception and feeling are inseparable, then why bother separating them in the first place?
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by Spiny Norman »

santa100 wrote: Feeling involves the simple affective tone of whether it feels pleasant, painful, or neutral while eating Kimchi; Perception involves the recognition/identification that the food is indeed Kimchi, the food has a color of red, the taste is classified as "spicy", etc.; Formation involves the attitude toward Kimchi, whether one'd like and intend to eat more or hate and stay away from it; Consciousness involves the basic awareness throughout the entire process..
So does feeling always come before perception? If for example I see something / somebody I don't like, doesn't the perception come first?
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indian_buddhist
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by indian_buddhist »

Spiny Norman wrote:
santa100 wrote: Feeling involves the simple affective tone of whether it feels pleasant, painful, or neutral while eating Kimchi; Perception involves the recognition/identification that the food is indeed Kimchi, the food has a color of red, the taste is classified as "spicy", etc.; Formation involves the attitude toward Kimchi, whether one'd like and intend to eat more or hate and stay away from it; Consciousness involves the basic awareness throughout the entire process..
So does feeling always come before perception?
I think we need to clearly distinguish between Feeling, Perception, Mental Formations ( Mental Kamma) and Consciousness.

It is true that one acts on the other . Its obvious that one acts on the other . But it would help to demarcate between the arising and falling away of each of these aggregates.

Avijja (Ignorance) is the root of the problem
From Avijja arises Mental Formations (Mental Kamma)
From Mental Formations arises Defiled Perceptions and Defiled Consciousness.

I think this is how the mind should be trained. First develop Wisdom which cuts the process of formation of Mental Kamma/Defiled Perception/Defiled Conciousness.

Feelings are that - Pleasant/Unpleasant depending on the situation. I think Wisdom has no role here. Wisdom cannot control the type of feelings you feel. When there is a Bad odour there is a Bad odour, everyone would feel that there is a Bad odour. It is how you react to the bad odour which is important.

Please Correct me If am wrong in my analysis anywhere.
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

indian_buddhist wrote:....
It is true that one acts on the other . Its obvious that one acts on the other . But it would help to demarcate between the arising and falling away of each of these aggregates.
No.
That would be a mistake, because they can overlap, and they are not sequential.
They can vary in intensity, and are co-dependent.
While we can describe the different processes, separating and demarcating is neither possible nor necessary.
Avijja (Ignorance) is the root of the problem
From Avijja arises Mental Formations (Mental Kamma)
From Mental Formations arises Defiled Perceptions and Defiled Consciousness.
Personally, I don't think, in ordinary everyday parlance, you can speak of all mental formations, perceptions and consciousness as being 'defiled'.
It's a very strong term to describe, for example, the processes you go though when witnessing something beautiful (by definition) happening, like a flower blooming, or a dragonfly emerging form its pupaeic shell...

Both, to be sure, are indicators of impermanence, but I cannot consider them as 'defiled'...
I think this is how the mind should be trained. First develop Wisdom which cuts the process of formation of Mental Kamma/Defiled Perception/Defiled Conciousness.
This I can see as being valid....
Feelings are that - Pleasant/Unpleasant depending on the situation. I think Wisdom has no role here.
On the contrary. I believe it is of essential and vital importance here.
Wisdom cannot control the type of feelings you feel. When there is a Bad odour there is a Bad odour, everyone would feel that there is a Bad odour. It is how you react to the bad odour which is important.
Which is where Wisdom is most certainly required; to ensure the discernment is not clouded by the conditions leading to Suffering.
Please Correct me If am wrong in my analysis anywhere.
Not wrong; mistaken. But there again, that is just my perception.
I may well be completely incorrect.....
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
Phena
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by Phena »

Spiny Norman wrote:So does feeling always come before perception? If for example I see something / somebody I don't like, doesn't the perception come first?
Spiny Norman you raise the same issue I have always had. If perception is classified as recognition, then does this not influence the type of feeling that arises? But as the Buddha clearly states, it appears that feeling influences perception:
  • "For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes."
Can anyone offer an explanation of this?
Last edited by Phena on Fri May 02, 2014 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
beeblebrox
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by beeblebrox »

indian_buddhist wrote: Avijja (Ignorance) is the root of the problem
From Avijja arises Mental Formations (Mental Kamma)
From Mental Formations arises Defiled Perceptions and Defiled Consciousness.

I think this is how the mind should be trained. First develop Wisdom which cuts the process of formation of Mental Kamma/Defiled Perception/Defiled Conciousness.

Feelings are that - Pleasant/Unpleasant depending on the situation. I think Wisdom has no role here. Wisdom cannot control the type of feelings you feel. When there is a Bad odour there is a Bad odour, everyone would feel that there is a Bad odour. It is how you react to the bad odour which is important.

Please Correct me If am wrong in my analysis anywhere.
Hi Indian Buddhist,

The bad odor isn't always perceived as "bad." The wisdom knows this, and to some extent (or even completely) that can influence the feelings which arise.

For example, when a person visits a sewer plant... some people would react to the odors very strongly, while others are not bothered as much.

Also interesting is that this can apply to a "pleasant" odor... for example, jasmine flower smells like death to some. The flower actually gives off chemicals which are similar to what are released from a decomposing body. Many people are unaware of this.

:anjali:
santa100
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by santa100 »

Spiny Norman wrote:So does feeling always come before perception? If for example I see something / somebody I don't like, doesn't the perception come first?
The 3 aggregates of Feeling, Perception, Formation belong to what's called the mental factors group(cetasika) which doesn't operate in a linear/sequential fashion. If we really have to say which one comes first, then using your example, I'd say Form and Consciousness. First that something or somebody has to show up, comes within range, and one needs to be "conscious" of that object. The "contact" of the object, the sense organ, the sense consciousness would then spawn the 3 mental factors.
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by daverupa »

santa100 wrote:If we really have to say which one comes first...
But we don't.

Rupa isn't even physical, in the sense of being the body, because there is rupa, as an aggregate, for every sense sphere, including e.g. ear and mind. So the rupa in these cases is just the external aspect of contact, while feeling-perception-consciousness is the internal aspect together with awareness of the nexus of these two aspects, which is to say, contact.

Parsing the aggregates is done in order to see that any aspect of any sphere of experience is necessarily of those five, and impermanent, and therefore anatta, and not worth upadana. One doesn't need to see every thing in the universe to see how the principle of impermanence applies to -experiencing- itself; the aggregates aren't what make up the person, they are what make up any possible experience.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

:goodpost:

....One doesn't need to see every thing in the universe to see how the principle of impermanence applies to -experiencing- itself; the aggregates aren't what make up the person, they are what make up any possible experience.
Beautifully put.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by indian_buddhist »

beeblebrox wrote:
indian_buddhist wrote: Avijja (Ignorance) is the root of the problem
From Avijja arises Mental Formations (Mental Kamma)
From Mental Formations arises Defiled Perceptions and Defiled Consciousness.

I think this is how the mind should be trained. First develop Wisdom which cuts the process of formation of Mental Kamma/Defiled Perception/Defiled Conciousness.

Feelings are that - Pleasant/Unpleasant depending on the situation. I think Wisdom has no role here. Wisdom cannot control the type of feelings you feel. When there is a Bad odour there is a Bad odour, everyone would feel that there is a Bad odour. It is how you react to the bad odour which is important.

Please Correct me If am wrong in my analysis anywhere.
Hi Indian Buddhist,

The bad odor isn't always perceived as "bad." The wisdom knows this, and to some extent (or even completely) that can influence the feelings which arise.

For example, when a person visits a sewer plant... some people would react to the odors very strongly, while others are not bothered as much.

Also interesting is that this can apply to a "pleasant" odor... for example, jasmine flower smells like death to some. The flower actually gives off chemicals which are similar to what are released from a decomposing body. Many people are unaware of this.

:anjali:
I think you are right, Perception influences the type of feelings we experience. A defiled Perception can perceive a pure feeling as defiled and vice versa.
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote: Rupa isn't even physical, in the sense of being the body, because there is rupa, as an aggregate, for every sense sphere, including e.g. ear and mind. So the rupa in these cases is just the external aspect of contact, while feeling-perception-consciousness is the internal aspect together with awareness of the nexus of these two aspects, which is to say, contact.
So are you saying that feeling-perception-consciousness represents our contact with form? And if so, do formations inform this contact?
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by Spiny Norman »

Phena wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:So does feeling always come before perception? If for example I see something / somebody I don't like, doesn't the perception come first?
Spiny Norman you raise the same issue I have always had. If perception is classified as recognition, then does this not influence the type of feeling that arises? But as the Buddha clearly states, it appears that feeling influences perception:
  • "For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes."
Can anyone offer an explanation of this?
I find it puzzling - it actually looks like reverse order to me.
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indian_buddhist
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Re: Question abt Khandhas (abt Consciousness)

Post by indian_buddhist »

Spiny Norman wrote:
daverupa wrote: Rupa isn't even physical, in the sense of being the body, because there is rupa, as an aggregate, for every sense sphere, including e.g. ear and mind. So the rupa in these cases is just the external aspect of contact, while feeling-perception-consciousness is the internal aspect together with awareness of the nexus of these two aspects, which is to say, contact.
So are you saying that feeling-perception-consciousness represents our contact with form? And if so, do formations inform this contact?
2 things - perceptions , feelings and consciousness already defiled by mental formations. contact with object causes attraction and revulsion and produces more kamma.

those feelings, perceptions and consciousness not already defiled by any new mental formations can be prevented to be defiled and with wisdom they be seen as they are...
Identification with my country is one of my fetters.
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