The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 & 95

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pulga
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Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Post by pulga »

Thanks, Sylvester. You probably have something to teach me.
Sylvester wrote: Might the construction be what Wijesekara alludes to as a semi nominative absolute (p.35)?
I think it would be according to Prof. Wijesekara. Does Warder touch upon the idea in his Introduction to Pali? In Lesson 24 (pg. 233) he discusses auxiliary verbs and lists as along with hú (bhú), car, (ṭ)ṭhā, vatt, and vi-har as all partaking of periphrastic constructions implying a temporal sense. How would Wijesekara classify the Buddha's admonition "pahitattá viharatha"? Is pahitatta here nominative? Or should the stress be placed on the past participle pahita, i.e. does the word mean "self-controlled" or "a self that is controlled" ?


(According to the PTS Dictionary pahitatta is the only use of pahita in the Pali Canon.)
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
Sylvester
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Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Post by Sylvester »

pulga wrote:Thanks, Sylvester. You probably have something to teach me.
Oh please, you're making me blush. :embarassed:

Sylvester wrote: Might the construction be what Wijesekara alludes to as a semi nominative absolute (p.35)?
I think it would be according to Prof. Wijesekara. Does Warder touch upon the idea in his Introduction to Pali?
As far as I can tell, Warder only discusses the absolute constructions for the genitive and locative. Not surprising, since Wijesekara opines that the nominative absolute are uncommon in Pali and Skt.

In Lesson 24 (pg. 233) he discusses auxiliary verbs and lists as along with hú (bhú), car, (ṭ)ṭhā, vatt, and vi-har as all partaking of periphrastic constructions implying a temporal sense.
Yup, that's right. It seems that a present participle periphrastic is discussed at pg 238. The stars are somewhat aligned in this case, as both this periphrastic reading and the nominative absolute reading have temporal dimensions. The former for duration, while the latter indicating contemporaneity (between the verbs in the subordinate and main clauses) given the present participle.

How would Wijesekara classify the Buddha's admonition "pahitattá viharatha"? Is pahitatta here nominative? Or should the stress be placed on the past participle pahita, i.e. does the word mean "self-controlled" or "a self that is controlled" ?


I have not seen this discussed by Wijesekara, but I think he would not depart from the plain reading of pahitatta as a participle. We can dispense with ä self that is controlled" given its Vedic nuance as a substantive rather than a pronoun.

The trick now is to ask - is the participle pahitatta functioning adnominally (ie as a adjective) or adverbally (as a verb)? I don't think it could be adnominal, since the as verb always describes substantive nouns, not adjectives. However, if it is functioning adverbally, then it is possible to read it as either periphrastic with samāna, or as a nominative absolute, where both participles are related as such to a silent/suppressed substantive noun in the nominative.

The only reason why I wonder if the nominative absolute may not be a likelier (statistically) candidate is because the periphrastic seems (in my limited reading) uncommon in a subordinate clause. The absolute constructions, by definition, need to be in a subordinate clause. To be sure, Warder does list periphrastics in subordinate clauses, but they seem to be in the minority.

:anjali:
pulga
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Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Post by pulga »

Sylvester wrote: The only reason why I wonder if the nominative absolute may not be a likelier (statistically) candidate is because the periphrastic seems (in my limited reading) uncommon in a subordinate clause. The absolute constructions, by definition, need to be in a subordinate clause. To be sure, Warder does list periphrastics in subordinate clauses, but they seem to be in the minority.
Duroiselle also explains a bit about the nominative absolute in his grammar on page 314. I don't own his grammar, but after discovering that Warder makes no mention of such an absolute, I can see the value in other grammars that go beyond Warder. What Duroiselle has to offer seems more user-friendly than Wijesekara: not as thorough, but less intimidating.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
Sylvester
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Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Post by Sylvester »

Methinks it's not his essay that intimidates you but this -

Image

:tongue:
pulga
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Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Post by pulga »

I feel like I've just been asked a question about adverbial clauses.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
pulga
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Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Post by pulga »

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote: The trick now is to ask - is the participle pahitatta functioning adnominally (ie as a adjective) or adverbally (as a verb)? I don't think it could be adnominal, since the as verb always describes substantive nouns, not adjectives. However, if it is functioning adverbally, then it is possible to read it as either periphrastic with samāna, or as a nominative absolute, where both participles are related as such to a silent/suppressed substantive noun in the nominative.
Given that in the nominative absolute the subject is explicit -- hence as you mentioned Wijesekara might treat the clause in question as a semi-absolute construction -- I'm inclined to consider it simply as a periphrastic. But I was wondering, do you see any significant impact on the meaning of the sentence between the two alternatives? Thanks.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
Sylvester
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Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Post by Sylvester »

Hi pulga,

The more I look at it, the more convinced I am that it is periphrastic.
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