YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 & 95 - Dhamma Wheel

The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 & 95

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 & 95

Postby starter » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:52 am

Greetings!

I'm attempting to translate the following important teaching on the steps of the practice that was repeatedly taught in different suttas such as MN 70 & 95:

"Idha, bhikkhave, saddhājāto upasaṅkamati, upasaṅkamanto payirupāsati, payirupāsanto sotaṃ odahati, ohitasoto dhammaṃ suṇāti, sutvā dhammaṃ dhāreti, dhatānaṃ dhammānaṃ atthaṃ upaparikkhati, atthaṃ upaparikkhato dhammā nijjhānaṃ khamanti, dhammanijjhānakkhantiyā sati chando jāyati, chandajāto ussahati, ussāhetvā tuleti, tulayitvā padahati, pahitatto samāno kāyena ceva paramasaccaṃ sacchikaroti, paññāya ca naṃ ativijjha passati."

"Here, Monks, one whose faith has arisen approaches; when approaching, he pays respect; while paying respect, he gives ear; while giving ear he hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it; having known it by heart, he investigates (ponders about) the Dhamma; having investigated it, the Dhamma insight arises; with the Dhamma insight arisen, mindfulness and desire arises; with desire arisen, he makes an effort (in applying the Dhamma); having made an effort, he examines (the result of his effort); having examined (the result of his effort), he strives; having strived, he realizes the same group (body) of the superior truth; endowed with (true) knowledge, he now finds no ignorance". [I tend to think "ativijjha" is the misspelling of "avijja", which makes more sense here.]

After this attempt, I've to admit that I've lost confidence in the accuracy of some available (subjective) translations, and will read important sutta passages in Pali instead of relying on the translations.

Your input will be appreciated. Metta to all!
Last edited by starter on Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

culaavuso
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby culaavuso » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:33 am



starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby starter » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:36 pm

Hello culaavuso,

Thanks for your input. I've incorporated some of your comments and revised the trial translation. As a beginner having a busy job, I'm trying to learn the original meaning of the Buddha's teaching by reading the Pali suttas using the helpful online Pali to English Dictionary on SuttalCentral. Grammar isn't that important to me, and I haven't taken any Pali course or studied Pali (except learning a little Pali pronunciation). I'm trying to see if I can learn Pali this way to enable me to understand the suttas. So the correction from you and other friends will be highly appreciated.

The Pali-English Dictionary's translation of "ativijjhati" / "paññāya ativijjha (ger.) passati" doesn't seem to fit here:

"paññāya ca naṃ ativijjha passatito": word to word translation would be "endowed with knowledge/wisdom, now no recognization in all details".

Even Pali-English Dictionary can make mistakes. For instance, the statement "Ativijjhati [Sk. atividhyati, ati + vyadh] to pierce, to enter into (fig.), to see through, only in phrase paññāya ativijjha (ger.) passati to recognise in all details M i.480; S v.226; A ii.178" doesn't seem to be correct, since in both MN 70 and MN 95, there's the phrase "paññāya ca naṃ ativijjha passatito".

To my immature opinion, "ativijjha" could be an ancient synonym or misspelling of "avijja".

As to the translation of "pahitatto samāno kāyena ceva paramasaccaṃ sacchikaroti", the word to word translation would be "having strived,the same body "cera" (how to translate cera?) superior truth realizes". "kāya" could be translated either as physical body or a collection. It doesn't seem to make much sense to me that one realizes the superior truth with the same body. It appears more logical that one realizes the same collection/group of superior truth. But it's only my two cents.

Metta to all!

Starter

culaavuso
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby culaavuso » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:33 pm



User avatar
Kare
Posts: 751
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby Kare » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:28 am

Mettāya,
Kåre

starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby starter » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:57 pm

Hello culaavuso and Kare,

Many thanks for your very helpful comments. I've realized the importance of Pali grammar, and will surely learn it. After learning "naṃ" is the accusative of "ta" (it) instead of "no" as indicated in the online Pali-English Dictionary of Sutta Central, I agree that "paññāya ca naṃ ativijjha passati" should be translated as "he sees, then having penetrated it with wisdom". I now withdraw my speculation that "ativijjha" could be an ancient synonym or misspelling of "avijja".

Considering the sutta references culaavuso kindly provided, I also agree with the translation "one realizes the superior truth with the same body".

Would it be possible for you and other Pali scholars to contribute to the online Pali-English Dictionary of Sutta Central (please see http://suttacentral.net/mn70/pi) to make it better? During my first attempt of translating the Pali passage cited in the first post using this online Pali-English Dictionary, I've noticed that there seem to be quite some not so accurate translations (and missing words), despite my lack of knowledge of Pali. But I highly appreciate that this dictionary is freely available online which really facilitates the reading of Pali suttas. If this dictionary can be improved, it'll greatly benefit many practitioners and we can understand the original teaching of the Buddha better.

With my gratitude and metta,

Starter
Last edited by starter on Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Kare
Posts: 751
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby Kare » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:20 am

Yes, the PTS dictionary can be improved. But that is a large task. PTS is working on a new dictionary, by Margaret Cone. Two volumes have appeared, in 2001 and 2010, which says something about how time-consuming the work is. I thought I'd wait until it is complete, so I have not seen those two volumes yet. Has anyone here seen them?

http://www.palitext.com/
http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse. ... K3lFbFz/IA

But once you are familiar with the grammar, you will recognize forms that are not always listed as words in a dictionary. So my best recommendation for you is to plunge into the study of Pali grammar. There are already threads here at this forum with lots of information about study books. And, before you know it, you'll discover that grammar is fun! :thumbsup:
Mettāya,
Kåre

pulga
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby pulga » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:57 pm


starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby starter » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:15 pm


pulga
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby pulga » Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:33 am


User avatar
danielgbg
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:47 am
Location: Kiruna, Sweden
Contact:

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby danielgbg » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:37 pm


User avatar
Dmytro
Posts: 1448
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Contact:

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby Dmytro » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:18 am



starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby starter » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:15 am

Hello Friends,

Thanks for all your help. Is the online Pali-English Dictionary on Sutta Central (please click on the Pali to English Dictionary tab on the link: http://suttacentral.net/mn1/pi) using the Digital Pali Reader?

By the way, for the relevant discussion on this quoted passage, please see the following threads

1) "MN 70 the steps of the practice passage: what's THE Dhamma?":
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20224

2) "Who can be the teacher of effacement?":
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16183

Metta to all!

Starter

Ananda26
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:41 pm

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby Ananda26 » Sat May 03, 2014 2:42 pm


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby Sylvester » Sat May 03, 2014 3:40 pm


pulga
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby pulga » Sun May 04, 2014 12:53 am


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby Sylvester » Sun May 04, 2014 4:44 am


pulga
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby pulga » Sun May 04, 2014 11:48 am


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby Sylvester » Mon May 05, 2014 3:31 am

Methinks it's not his essay that intimidates you but this -



:tongue:

pulga
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The translation of the steps of the practice in MN 70 &

Postby pulga » Mon May 05, 2014 4:12 am

I feel like I've just been asked a question about adverbial clauses.


Return to “Pāli”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine