Can We Hear Sound in Jhāna?

[Sekha]

Isn't sound consider as perception and feeling?

I think we have no idea what kind of perceptions and feelings one may experience in the 8th jhana, so all this is pure speculation.

I think that when ekaggata is present (2nd sutta-jhana onward) sounds may be heard but they won't be analyzed nor even noticed, otherwise it means one has lost the meditation object and therefore has lost ekaggata, which means one has lost the 2nd sutta-jhana.

[santa100]

Some meditators say that we can’t hear sounds in jhāna, not even the first one. They speak by conviction of their own experience, and I agree. It’s true we can’t hear sounds in the Visuddhimagga type of jhāna. However, some among them claim that they are going by the Suttas, citing the Kaṇṭaka Sutta (AN10.72), which says, “Sound is a thorn (i.e., bother, source of discomfort) to the first jhāna.” (paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako)

Could you provide the Vism. passage that specifically states that (more specifically, the first jhana)? Matter of fact, Vism X.19 even agrees with the Sutta:

In fact it is because they have not been abandoned already before this[Base of Infinity of Space] that it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first jhána (A V 135). And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the imperturbability (see Vibh 135) of the immaterial attainments and their state of peaceful liberation are mentioned (M I 33), and that Álára Káláma neither saw the five hundred carts that passed close by him nor heard the sound of them while he was in an immaterial attainment (D II 130).

[daverupa]

The lack of clarity is well clarified in Tapussa Sutta, in which we find details of how the Ascetic Gotama progressed through the jhānas. It's among the suttas that the Vism's understanding can't fit in.

That sutta describes the four jhanas and the other five attainments as sequential, but this is at odds with other suttas that describe only the four jhanas without equanimity being a problem, at odds with suttas that described the jhanas as unique to the Buddha's rose-apple experience & the Dhamma, at odds with an early Nikayic weltenschaung which sees these other attainments as among the common sramana stock, two methods of which the Buddha explicitly rejected...

There are numerous problems here, so using this sutta on its own doesn't generate much confidence in strong conclusions, for me.

[Mkoll]

“Sound is a thorn (i.e., bother, source of discomfort) to the first jhāna.” (paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako)

The question is whether sound is a bother to getting into the jhana or whether it's a bother while in the jhana. The second obviously implies sound impinging on oneself while in jhana.

Perhaps the experience of jhana is different for different folks with only the basic framework of each jhana (applied and sustained thought, rapture, happiness, etc.) held in common.

[Kumara]

“Sound is a thorn (i.e., bother, source of discomfort) to the first jhāna.” (paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako)

The question is whether sound is a bother to getting into the jhana or whether it's a bother while in the jhana. The second obviously implies sound impinging on oneself while in jhana.

I would say both.

[Kumara]

The lack of clarity is well clarified in Tapussa Sutta, in which we find details of how the Ascetic Gotama progressed through the jhānas. It's among the suttas that the Vism's understanding can't fit in.

That sutta describes the four jhanas and the other five attainments as sequential, but this is at odds with other suttas that describe only the four jhanas without equanimity being a problem, at odds with suttas that described the jhanas as unique to the Buddha's rose-apple experience & the Dhamma, at odds with an early Nikayic weltenschaung which sees these other attainments as among the common sramana stock, two methods of which the Buddha explicitly rejected...

There are numerous problems here, so using this sutta on its own doesn't generate much confidence in strong conclusions, for me.

I've trouble understanding. Can you be clearer?

[Kumara]

Could you provide the Vism. passage that specifically states that (more specifically, the first jhana)? Matter of fact, Vism X.19 even agrees with the Sutta:

I get your point, and agree. Let me be clearer by inserting here what I've written in an appendix of my (almost completed) book:

This in fact agrees with the Suttas and at odds with present-day Theravāda. So, where then does the cut-off-from-the-five-senses jhāna come from?

Earlier in the same book, we find this:

79. At this point, “Quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unprofitable things he enters upon and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought with happiness and bliss born of seclusion” (Vibh 245)….
80. Herein, quite secluded from sense desires means having secluded himself from, having become without, having gone away from, sense desires….
83. But this term “sense desires” should be regarded as including all kinds, that is to say, sense desires as object as given in the Niddesa in the passage beginning, “What are sense desires as object? They are agreeable visible objects…” (Nidd I 1), and the sense desires as defilement given there too and in the Vibhaṅga thus: “Zeal as sense desire (kāma), greed as sense desire, zeal and greed as sense desire, thinking as sense desire, greed as sense desire, thinking and greed as sense desire” 24 (Nidd I 2; Vibh 256). That being so, the words “quite secluded from sense desires” properly mean “quite secluded from sense desires as object,”….
~ Path Of Purification Part 2: Concentration (Samādhi), Chapter IV: The Earth Kasina

So while kāmā means sense desires, here the Visuddhi­magga, injecting an idea again, says it should mean “sense desires as object” (vatthukāmā), citing the Niddesa—a commentary which the Theravāda tradition attributes to Āyasmā Sariputta.

Notice that it is equating two distinctively different things. The distinction is clarified in Nibbedhika Sutta (AN6.63):

“There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear… aromas cognizable via the nose… flavors cognizable via the tongue… tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. But these are not sensuality. They are called strings of sensuality in the discipline of the noble ones.”
The passion for his resolves is a man’s sensuality,
not the beautiful sensual pleasures
found in the world.
The passion for his resolves is a man’s sensuality.
The beauties remain as they are in the world,
while the wise, in this regard,
subdue their desire.1

Anyway, the Niddesa in defining “sense desires as object” includes as examples carpets, female & male slaves, goats & sheep, land, gold, villages, royal cities, kingdom, treasury; in short “any enticing object”.

Taking this literally, this suggests that the Visuddhi­magga is saying physical seclusion from agreeable or enticing objects only. However, the subsequent paragraph in the Niddesa goes further. Besides past, future and present sense desire; internal, external, and internal and external sense desire; etc., even hellish sense desire (?), it includes all things of the sensual realm, form realm and formless realm. This effectively covers everything in saṁsāra.

So, if the Visuddhi­magga meant to include this paragraph (and it doesn’t indicate otherwise), then it’s implying here that the first jhāna entails not only the non-perception of the five senses, but everything.
This explains why some people regard jhāna as being in a state of oblivion. Nothing can be known, even the mental state itself, until one emerges from it. This sounds the same as one of the two kinds of jhāna Ajahn Thate was referring to: “a blank sort of stillness, devoid of self-awareness like the state of deep sleep”.

As we can see, the Visuddhi­magga is inconsistent about what “jhāna” means. So technically there is a range of mental states that can be called “Visuddhi­magga jhāna”: from one where the five sense perceptions is possible to one where the meditator is oblivious to everything.

Nonetheless, present-day orthodox Theravāda generally regards that in ‘jhāna’ the meditator is at least oblivious to the sight, sound, smell and taste. It leaves some room for various sub-interpretations of ‘jhāna’. Teachers of this kind of jhāna agree in one point though: Jhāna is attained by getting absorbed into a nimitta—as it means in the Visuddhi­magga.

[mikenz66]

Interesting stuff, Bhante. Surely, even in the passage you quote, the statement "quite secluded..." does not necessarily imply oblivion. I imagine a careful reading of the Pali might be necessary, which is beyond my abilities.

On the other hand, as we have seen, some do argue that the suttas support "Visuddhimagga-strength jhana". Ajahn Brahm and Sylvester, for a start... For that reason, I dislike the "VM" label. It seems to be a case of what "depth" one considers to qualify as jhana.


Mike

[Mkoll]

“Sound is a thorn (i.e., bother, source of discomfort) to the first jhāna.” (paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako)

The question is whether sound is a bother to getting into the jhana or whether it's a bother while in the jhana. The second obviously implies sound impinging on oneself while in jhana.

I would say both.

Good point, I forgot that option.

[robertk]

how could sound be experienced in jhana when there is total absorption in the object of the jhana.

The Tipitika (let alone Visuddhimagga ) specifically says that sound cannot be experienced while in Jhana .

[Kumara]

Interesting stuff, Bhante. Surely, even in the passage you quote, the statement "quite secluded..." does not necessarily imply oblivion. I imagine a careful reading of the Pali might be necessary, which is beyond my abilities.

The English translation is okay. Take note that what one is "quite secluded" from is sense desires or sensuality (as Aj Thanissaro prefers, and I second it), and not from sense objects. This is made explicit in Nibbedhika Sutta quoted above.

[Kumara]

how could sound be experienced in jhana when there is total absorption in the object of the jhana.

The Tipitika (let alone Visuddhimagga ) specifically says that sound cannot be experienced while in Jhana .

Please offer the reference.

[Kumara]

“Sound is a thorn (i.e., bother, source of discomfort) to the first jhāna.” (paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako)

I'd like to add though that B.Bodhi rendered saddo as "noise". It might be a better translation going by context.

Should we take it as sound, the "thorn" should not imply prevention. Otherwise, to achieve even first jhana, we would need a sound-proof room!

[mikenz66]

Interesting stuff, Bhante. Surely, even in the passage you quote, the statement "quite secluded..." does not necessarily imply oblivion. I imagine a careful reading of the Pali might be necessary, which is beyond my abilities.

The English translation is okay. Take note that what one is "quite secluded" from is sense desires or sensuality (as Aj Thanissaro prefers, and I second it), and not from sense objects. This is made explicit in Nibbedhika Sutta quoted above.

Sorry, I'm not quite sure about your meaning. Are you agreeing that the VM passage doesn't necessarily have to be interpreted as not being able to hear, etc? As I said, just reading the English translation, it's not at all clear to me that it is saying that. But I may be missing something.


Mike

[robertk]

how could sound be experienced in jhana when there is total absorption in the object of the jhana.

The Tipitika (let alone Visuddhimagga ) specifically says that sound cannot be experienced while in Jhana .

Please offer the reference.

Katthavatthu PTS translation by Aung and Davids pages 331-332.the seventh book of the ABhiddhamma (and part of the Tipitika)


It is stated that a heretical sect thought sound could be heard in jhana. This gives the Commentary explanation below
XV1118 Of Hearing in Jhana
From the commentary [by Buddhaghosa] Controverted point - That one who has attained jhana hears sound."The opinion is held by some - the Pubbaseilyans , for instance- that because the Exalted one called sound a thorn to first jhana, and if sound if not heard cannot be thorn in the flesh of one who had attained that state, it was inferable that such a one was able to hear.

It takes over a page for the Theravada to show why this is wrong