Any stream-enterer here?

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby david.sojourn » Tue May 06, 2014 3:08 pm

Sacha G wrote:Hello
Would anyone here declare themselves a sotapanna (or stream enterer) or any near to it?
The definition of a stream enterer ranges from "one who has unshakable faith in the 3 gems" to "one who has had direct experience of nibbâna". Ceasing with cling to rules and observances is also a characteristic of the stream-enterer, as is right view, which means direct understing of dependent origination (not an easy task it seems).
:coffee:


The problem with the "Definition" of a Stream Enterer is that it is a "Definition" of a Stream Enterer.

It is the attachment to conventions (Not just rules and observances) that prevents Stream Entry.

This does not, however, include ritual practices which are designed to enhance mindfulness.

By "Conventions", it is referring to the beliefs that we hold that the world around us is as we think it is. That said, to believe in the deterministic models of science, laws, governments, etc, as being a form of "Ultimate" truth is what attachment to Convention truly is.

To assume that "What you see" is what you get, is what attachment to conventions truly are. To believe what you have been told, read, learned in school, without investigating it yourself, is "Attachment" to convention".

To believe that DOING the "Ritual" practices will somehow get you to enlightenment (Like fulfilling an algorithmic requirement) is an attachment to Convention. The practices themselves are just the practices. Do them. Don't do them. That's not what "Attachment" and "Clinging" are referring to. That's just the "Definition you have in your mind of what they are.

The problem with the definition of "Convention" is that it is a definition of "Convention".

The problem with the definition of "Clinging" is that it is a definition of "Clinging".

Start letting go of the "Definitions". The "Definitions" themselves ARE conventions.

To have unshakable faith in the "Three Gems" is not required for Stream Entry. Stream Entry is attainable to all human beings, regardless of religious affiliation. In fact, you are born "Enlightened", and lose it as soon as "Conventions" begin to drag you away from it....

With Faith in the Buddha, you are taking faith that his path was true, and that he in fact discovered a way of "returning" to his own true nature. He re-harmonized himself with the universe. Unfortunately, contrary to the texts, unshakeable faith in the Buddha's path does not, and can not truly occur until after stream entry. And there are some nuances regarding the Buddha's path, as well.... To try to "create" Absolute faith that his path was right, is in itself another convention, and a new problem in itself.

Unshakeable faith in the Dhamma cannot fully occur until you have experienced the Dhamma directly, which occurs after Stream Entry. It is a preconceived notion (A convention) that you must establish these things prior to Stream entry. That's why you find so many unenlightened people who've practiced for 50 years. This is the misconception (Attachment to convention) that there is an "Algorithmic" approach to enlightenment. You're trying to "Get something", to "Buy" your way into enlightenment. But this misunderstanding of what Enlightenment IS, is in itself a block to the very enlightenment you seek.

Unshakeable faith in the Sangha, well, just focus on harmonizing yourself with the world around you. Strive for a symbiotic relationship with this world, strive for balance and compromise. Choose wholesome behavior, over unwholesome behavior and begin to examine your world more closely, the people, the birds, the grass, the stones--See if you can see the "Sangha" in them all, how they interact with one another, how they depend on one another, support one another.... Look into the heart to decide if what YOU are doing is right or wrong--Set the books aside. The books too, are conventions, mostly written by the unenlightened trying to lead the unenlightened. The Heart has all of the answers you need.

You see the birds flying in perfect formations? They understand their true nature very well. You see a bunch of humans fighting, bickering, pushing and shoving in the subway station? This is the result of a non-symbiotic (Non-harmonious, non-balanced) existence.

And if you think the birds fly in such orderly formations because they have "instincts", I recommend, to get yourself started, you drop the attachment to that "Convention/Idea", asap. Try to experience the world more like a bird, yourself. You might be surprised if you suddenly figure out just how they actually fly so neatly.... And science won't have the answer you're looking for, this I promise you.

Stop trying so hard to "Become" something that is not in your true nature. Your true nature is to be a human.

You might be disappointed for many more lifetimes if you fail to come to this understanding before this one is over with....
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Crazy cloud » Tue May 06, 2014 3:26 pm

makes sense .. :) :goodpost:
your name Mori means forest like the infinite fresh green distances of your blindness
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby david.sojourn » Tue May 06, 2014 4:39 pm

Crazy cloud wrote:makes sense .. :) :goodpost:


That's what you think!! :lol:
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Crazy cloud » Tue May 06, 2014 5:03 pm

david.sojourn wrote:
Crazy cloud wrote:makes sense .. :) :goodpost:


That's what you think!! :lol:


And how sure are you about that? :smile:
your name Mori means forest like the infinite fresh green distances of your blindness
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby david.sojourn » Tue May 06, 2014 6:54 pm

Crazy cloud wrote:
david.sojourn wrote:
Crazy cloud wrote:makes sense .. :) :goodpost:


That's what you think!! :lol:


And how sure are you about that? :smile:


Who's sure about what?
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Mkoll » Tue May 06, 2014 7:48 pm

david.sojourn wrote:You see the birds flying in perfect formations? They understand their true nature very well. You see a bunch of humans fighting, bickering, pushing and shoving in the subway station? This is the result of a non-symbiotic (Non-harmonious, non-balanced) existence.


Just FYI, symbiosis is a broad term that covers mutualism, commensalism, parasitism, etc. But your point was made.
Peace,
James
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby SarathW » Wed May 07, 2014 12:06 am

david.sojourn wrote:
Crazy cloud wrote:makes sense .. :) :goodpost:


That's what you think!! :lol:


Hi David
I do not want to comment too much except to say that I enjoy your company! :group:
So I wish to sit back, relax and listen to you. :popcorn:

However few points need clarification:
a) you are not born Enlightened. You are born with ignorance. However rebirth consciousness is radiant. Radiant consciousness is not enlightenment.
Please see the video " Are you good or Evil"
b) birds fly in such orderly formations because they take the least resistance path. Buddha's teaching is about swim against the current not to follow it.
c) You also seems to have your own strong views. :)

:meditate:
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby waterchan » Wed May 07, 2014 1:18 am

david.sojourn wrote:To have unshakable faith in the "Three Gems" is not required for Stream Entry. Stream Entry is attainable to all human beings, regardless of religious affiliation. In fact, you are born "Enlightened", and lose it as soon as "Conventions" begin to drag you away from it....


Is this purely your personal opinion, or can you provide a sutta source for your claims that people who believe in a soul can attain stream entry, and that newborn babies are arahants that lose their arahantship over time?
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 07, 2014 1:25 am

Greetings,

While the Buddha was lying between the twin sal trees on the eve of his demise, a wandering ascetic named Subhadda came into his presence to resolve a doubt: he wished to know whether or not the other great religious teachers contemporary with the Buddha, who were regarded as saints by the multitude, had actually attained spiritual realization, as they claimed to have done. The Buddha shifted the burden of the discussion away from a question aimed at assessing particular individuals and rephrased it in terms of a general evaluative principle. He declared: "In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline the Noble Eightfold Path is not found, there one cannot find true recluses of the four degrees of liberation. But in whatever Dhamma and Discipline the Noble Eightfold Path is found, there one can find the four types of true recluses." Then the Buddha imparted to Subhadda the information that was important for him to know: "In this Dhamma and Discipline the Noble Eightfold Path is found, and in it alone are found also the true recluses of the four degrees. Outside this Dispensation the four types of enlightened individuals are not to be found. The doctrines of others are devoid of true recluses." In this passage the thrust of the Buddha's explanation points to a particular method of practice as essential to the attainment of true realization. That method of practice is the training in the Noble Eightfold Path, and because this path, in its fullness and perfection, is unique to the Dispensation of a Fully Enlightened One, it follows that persons who have reached the planes of deliverance are unique to his Dispensation as well.

Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el390.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby waterchan » Wed May 07, 2014 1:31 am

And unfortunately

...the Noble Eightfold Path is not found...


in one who believes in the existence of a transmigrating self or soul.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Crazy cloud » Wed May 07, 2014 10:36 am

david.sojourn wrote:
Crazy cloud wrote:
david.sojourn wrote:
That's what you think!! :lol:


And how sure are you about that? :smile:


Who's sure about what?


This:
you think


:)
your name Mori means forest like the infinite fresh green distances of your blindness
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby vesak2014 » Wed May 07, 2014 6:31 pm

The answer is: (probably) yes.
But it doesn't mean I claim to be one example.
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