Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly without?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
fraaJad
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by fraaJad »

Hi Mkoll,

You know, that about the number of nibbana experiences is most certainly my own misunderstanding. Those weren't the words used to describe it, it was just how I conceptualized it.
From what I've heard, each "level" (stream entry, once returner, non returner, arhant) has a "path" and a "fruition"... Perhaps those are not separate experiences of nibbana. Most likely it is not possible to put into words what's really going on there. Oh well.

Thanks for calling me on that! :toast: Probably best not to think about nibbana anyway.

metta,
Jad
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

VinceField wrote: What seems misleading to me is to claim that one can mindfully dissipate one's hindrances when in fact all one is doing is pushing them away, shutting them out, cutting one's perception off from them, blocking them from arising. This is not so much about misleading interpretations, but rather a matter of facts regarding these practices. Either the methods called for in Vipassana and Samatha lead one to mindful acceptance and dissipation of hinderances in a wholesome way, or they lead to mental tightening, resistance, and the blocking and suppression of hinderances.
Okay. Which practices lead to blocking and suppression of hindrances?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by mikenz66 »

2pennyworth wrote: For what it's worth, I think the pertinent issue here is beginning to see how the way one habitually greets the hindrances has an effect. ....
Which is something emphasised by many teachers.

I've nothing against Ven V's instructions, they seem consistent with the suttas, and many other teachers. What I always find problematical (not just in this case) is claims that others have overlooked various stuff. In most cases I'm familiar with, these sorts of claims appear to be a matter of not having a detailed knowledge of what the "others" actually teach. And, by this I mean not just their introductory instructions --- one has to look at their whole "package".

:anjali:
Mike
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VinceField
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by VinceField »

Fraajad

Thank you so much for sharing your experience! It has helped enhance my confidence and motivation in my own practices. I am surprised that you were able to attain such significant results with the seemingly little time you put in, but perhaps you invested more time than what I have understood from your post. Regardless, I want you to know that your post is greatly appreciated and helpful. Cheers! :clap:
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VinceField
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by VinceField »

Tiltbillings
tiltbillings wrote:Okay. Which practices lead to blocking and suppression of hindrances?
Here are a few excerpts from Bhante's book, which is where I was introduced to the idea that certain practices suppress hindrances.

"A meditator who practices "Concentration Meditation" over-focuses on the object of meditation and thus, they have the tendency to close or tighten mind until there are no more distractions. This practice leads to deep absorption of mind where hindrances are blocked."

"When a hindrance arises, one must work to open their mind by seeing it clearly as anicca (impermanence, it wasn't there and now it is), dukkha (suffering or unsatisfactoriness, one sees that when these distractions arise they are painful), and anatta (not taking it personally, seeing the hindrances in the true way as being an impersonal process that one has no control over and not taking these hindrances as "I am that"). As a result, one begins to see clearly how mind works and this leads to the development of wisdom. When one allows and does not identify with these hindrances, they will naturally fade away."

"One-pointed concentration suppresses the hindrance. Thus, they have not completely let go of the ego-attachment to that distraction. Their mind is also tight and tense because they are not seeing clearly that they are not opening and allowing, but closing and fighting with that distraction."

"Whenever one suppresses anything, they are not purifying mind, or experiencing things as they truly are. At the time of suppression, one is pushing away or not allowing part of their experience and thus, this contracts mind instead of expanding and opening mind. As a result, it is not purifying mind of ignorance. One is actually stopping the process of purification of mind!"

"The Lord Buddha had never taught suppression of any experience nor did he teach a meditation that causes mind to fix or to absorb into the meditation object. Remember, he rejected every form of 'concentration meditation' as not being the correct way. Rather, suffering must be accepted with equanimity, full awareness or strong attention and not identifying with it or taking that pain personally."

"Other meditation's instructions have the meditators put their attention into the middle of the pain and try to see its true nature and watch its changes. But pain by nature, is repulsive and thus, the meditators have the tendency to tighten and harden mind so that they can continue watching the pain. The meditators will eventually develop enough concentration (fixed attention) to be able to overcome the pain. However, this is achieved by repressing and tightening mind."

"One can clearly observe that the spiritual base of investigation of one's experience is to purify mind by allowing everything that happens in the present moment to be there without trying to fight, control, or even disturb it in any way. Loving-acceptance and patience (or non-aversion) of the present moment is the way to attain Nibbana. It is not attained by concentration, tightness, suppression and repression."

While these ideas make sense to me, I do not have sufficient experience to accurately discern their truth. Anyone with first hand experience with the concepts raised here is encouraged to share their opinions and findings! :soap: :twothumbsup:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

While what is being described is, of course, referring what would be called jhana meditation, and since I really do not have an interest in this issue, I am not going to discuss the point how jhana are understood in the suttas. I do not see, however, in this quote anything really addresses the issue Burmese Vipassana Meditation practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

2pennyworth wrote:
Choose a primary object
Rest attention on primary object
Recognise when attention has been caught by something other than primary object
Acknowledge secondary object arisen
Release attention from secondary object/'distraction'
Return attention to primary object
Repeat as necessary

Along with the instructions to investigate anicca, anatta, dukkha nature of all arising 'objects'.

Recently I've applied the instructions of Ven Bhante Vimalaramsi, or rather, his commentary of the Buddha's instructions for tranquil insight, to my own practice and found them to be extremely effective. It seems that the simple but seemingly vital additions/modifications Ven Bhante makes to the above basic practice instructions makes all the difference.

Ven Bhante Vimalaramsi's 'vital' additions/modifications:

Choose a primary object
Rest attention on primary object
Recognise when attention has been caught by something other than primary object
Release attention from secondary object/'distraction'
Relax physical manifestation of craving - ie tightness and tension in head and body
Re-smile (promotes a joyful, uplifted mind)
Return attention to primary object along with the tranquil, uplifted mind.
Repeat as necessary
  • Release attention from secondary object/'distraction'
    Relax physical manifestation of craving - ie tightness and tension in head and body
    Re-smile (promotes a joyful, uplifted mind)
The question is: How is this done in actual practice?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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VinceField
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by VinceField »

I do not see, however, in this quote anything really addresses the issue Burmese Vipassana Meditation practice.
It is my understanding that a high level of sustained concentration is required from most Vipassana cultivation methods. Although it is a different type of concentration than the Samatha methods, Bhante makes many references to the fact that momentary, access, and absorption concentration all produce the same restrictive results. Thus every mention of "concentration" inherently refers to both Vipassana and Samatha practices. He actually states that these types of concentration are never even mentioned in the Suttas. The Vipassana method of dealing with pain is also mentioned in the quotes I provided. :rofl:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

VinceField wrote:
I do not see, however, in this quote anything really addresses the issue Burmese Vipassana Meditation practice.
It is my understanding that a high level of sustained concentration is required from most Vipassana cultivation methods. Although it is a different type of concentration than the Samatha methods, Bhante makes many references to the fact that momentary, access, and absorption concentration all produce the same restrictive results. Thus every mention of "concentration" inherently refers to both Vipassana and Samatha practices. He actually states that these types of concentration are never even mentioned in the Suttas. The Vipassana method of dealing with pain is also mentioned in the quotes I provided.
Firstly, the level of concentration required for vipassana meditation does not cause the "restrictive results." Also, if we are going to limit ourselves to what is explicitly, and literally, spelled out in the suttas, then his "6-Rs" will not be found.
"Other meditation's instructions have the meditators put their attention into the middle of the pain and try to see its true nature and watch its changes. But pain by nature, is repulsive and thus, the meditators have the tendency to tighten and harden mind so that they can continue watching the pain. The meditators will eventually develop enough concentration (fixed attention) to be able to overcome the pain. However, this is achieved by repressing and tightening mind."
While any meditative practice/technique can be used for "repressing" one's experience (including the 6-Rs), what is being described here is a very shallow, inexperienced understanding/experience of vipassana practice. It does not reflect the teachings I have gotten from experienced Mahasi Saydaw style teachers over the last 40+ years, nor does it reflect, in the least, my experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
2pennyworth wrote:Relax physical manifestation of craving - ie tightness and tension in head and body
Re-smile (promotes a joyful, uplifted mind)
tiltbillings wrote:The question is: How is this done in actual practice?
The first can be done via the breath... "In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications." (MN 44) and "He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'" (MN 118)

Smiling is just smiling. See also this brief TED Talk on The Hidden Power Of Smiling - https://www.ted.com/talks/ron_gutman_th ... of_smiling

:)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
2pennyworth wrote:Relax physical manifestation of craving - ie tightness and tension in head and body
Re-smile (promotes a joyful, uplifted mind)
tiltbillings wrote:The question is: How is this done in actual practice?
The first can be done via the breath... "In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications." (MN 44) and "He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'" (MN 118)

Smiling is just smiling.

:)

Metta,
Retro. :)
A rather conceptually busy practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
barcsimalsi
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by barcsimalsi »

retrofuturist wrote:
Smiling is just smiling.
Perhaps it is gladdening/satisfying the mind like in the 3rd tetrad;
[10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.'
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VinceField
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by VinceField »

Firstly, the level of concentration required for vipassana meditation does not cause the "restrictive results."
I guess I'll take your word for it..
what is being described here is a very shallow, inexperienced understanding/experience of vipassana practice. It does not reflect the teachings I have gotten from experienced Mahasi Saydaw style teachers over the last 40+ years, nor does it reflect, in the least, my experience.
Care to elaborate? :thanks:

Just want to be sure you are being :quote: straightforward. :thumbsup: Reviewing your activity and behavior on past Bhante threads, it seems you have a peculiar attachment to this issue.. :cry:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:A rather conceptually busy practice.
To be clear, are you calling the Buddha's instructions in the Anapanasati Sutta "conceptually busy"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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retrofuturist
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings barcsimalsi,
barcsimalsi wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:
Smiling is just smiling.
Perhaps it is gladdening/satisfying the mind like in the 3rd tetrad;
[10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.'
Potentially... it certainly wouldn't hurt!

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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