Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly without?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
beeblebrox
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by beeblebrox »

Hi All,

Maybe it would be helpful to look at the five hindrances (sensory desire, ill-will, sloth/torpor, restlessness/worry, and doubt), and then think about whether it is possible, useful or feasible to try to suppress any of them during an actual practice.

For example, how do we "suppress" the torpor, or doubt?

The point of these hindrances is that they interfere with the effectiveness of the practice.

If any one of them is present, then it is a part of practice to figure out what to do with it. I think that is a part of developing the insight.

If the act of "suppressing" develops a tension and that doesn't feel good, then I think it would end up leading to the ill-will, or worry, and maybe doubt about the method of the practice. It is basically self-correcting.

:anjali:
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2pennyworth
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by 2pennyworth »

mikenz66 wrote:hi 2pennyworth,
2pennyworth wrote: Ven V's emphasis on the specific link between the arsing of craving and the manifestation of physical and tangible tightness and tension in the head was a new one to me, but perhaps this is due to my lack of thorough knowledge of other's teachings?
Physical manifestations arising due to mental processes are discussed by just about everyone, as far as I can recall. Again, it may be just a matter of different ways of expressing such things, and they may not identify specific places...

:anjali:
Mike
Yeah agreed, and I thought I was practicing "relaxing" effectively in my practice prior to applying Ven V's specific instructions. Like I say, I thought it was "trite" - as in common knowledge and nothing new. But i personally discovered more layers to this relaxing, using this specific constant "relaxing" process applied every time my mind moved and attention got 'snagged' by something, layers which i was completely ignorant of prior to practicing Ven V's specific instructions. But it was maybe just me and my misapplication of other's instructions. I'd never seen for example, the very subtle way the forehead tightened, when attention/mind moved to something. I became very sensitive to any tightness in the head, and this tightness around the brain, which I had not been aware of previously - had totally overlooked and taken for granted, which had been constant (not so much talking about the more obvious tension that can arise in the head when obviously stressed for example), completely went as practice deepened. This was all news to me! I also think practicing brahma viharas / metta practice helped immensely.
Last edited by 2pennyworth on Thu May 08, 2014 7:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
“We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away.” ~ Chuang Tzu
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote: . . .
Dear Mike
looking at his background I find it hard to see how he can be seen as someone who as you said " appear to be a matter of not having a detailed knowledge of what the "others" actually teach".
For all the names dropped in the biography, if he really spent time with these teachers, he shows very little understanding of the practice he is criticizing.

For example:

"Other meditation's instructions have the meditators put their attention into the middle of the pain and try to see its true nature and watch its changes. But pain by nature, is repulsive and thus, the meditators have the tendency to tighten and harden mind so that they can continue watching the pain. The meditators will eventually develop enough concentration (fixed attention) to be able to overcome the pain. However, this is achieved by repressing and tightening mind." http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 24#p289026

If he had actually worked with Munindra-ji, heard what Munindra-ji had to say during retreat Dhamma talks, and what Munindra-ji would say in one-to-one instructions about dealing with pain and the cultivation of concentration and mindfulness, this quote represents a very poor and distorted understanding of the practice he is criticizing.

All these teachers with whom Vimalaramsi supposedly practiced and studied did not truly understand the Buddha's teachings, but Vimaaramsi, alone, got it right.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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2pennyworth
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by 2pennyworth »

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote: . . .
Dear Mike
looking at his background I find it hard to see how he can be seen as someone who as you said " appear to be a matter of not having a detailed knowledge of what the "others" actually teach".
For all the names dropped in the biography, if he really spent time with these teachers, he shows very little understanding of the practice he is criticizing.

For example:

"Other meditation's instructions have the meditators put their attention into the middle of the pain and try to see its true nature and watch its changes. But pain by nature, is repulsive and thus, the meditators have the tendency to tighten and harden mind so that they can continue watching the pain. The meditators will eventually develop enough concentration (fixed attention) to be able to overcome the pain. However, this is achieved by repressing and tightening mind." http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 24#p289026

If he had actually worked with Munindra-ji, heard what Munindra-ji had to say during retreat Dhamma talks, and what Munindra-ji would say in one-to-one instructions about dealing with pain and the cultivation of concentration and mindfulness, this quote represents a very poor and distorted understanding of the practice he is criticizing.

All these teachers with whom Vimalaramsi supposedly practiced and studied did not truly understand the Buddha's teachings, but Vimaaramsi, alone, got it right.
Is Ven Vimalaramsi specifically talking about Munindra-ji here?
“We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away.” ~ Chuang Tzu
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

2pennyworth wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote: . . .
Dear Mike
looking at his background I find it hard to see how he can be seen as someone who as you said " appear to be a matter of not having a detailed knowledge of what the "others" actually teach".
For all the names dropped in the biography, if he really spent time with these teachers, he shows very little understanding of the practice he is criticizing.

For example:

"Other meditation's instructions have the meditators put their attention into the middle of the pain and try to see its true nature and watch its changes. But pain by nature, is repulsive and thus, the meditators have the tendency to tighten and harden mind so that they can continue watching the pain. The meditators will eventually develop enough concentration (fixed attention) to be able to overcome the pain. However, this is achieved by repressing and tightening mind." http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 24#p289026

If he had actually worked with Munindra-ji, heard what Munindra-ji had to say during retreat Dhamma talks, and what Munindra-ji would say in one-to-one instructions about dealing with pain and the cultivation of concentration and mindfulness, this quote represents a very poor and distorted understanding of the practice he is criticizing.

All these teachers with whom Vimalaramsi supposedly practiced and studied did not truly understand the Buddha's teachings, but Vimaaramsi, alone, got it right.
Is Ven Vimalaramsi specifically talking about Munindra-ji here?
This certainly seems to be a "characterization" of the sort of thing one might hear from a Mahasi Sayadaw style teacher, such as U Pandita and Munindra-ji.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
fraaJad
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by fraaJad »

VinceField wrote: Thank you so much for sharing your experience! It has helped enhance my confidence and motivation in my own practices. I am surprised that you were able to attain such significant results with the seemingly little time you put in, but perhaps you invested more time than what I have understood from your post. Regardless, I want you to know that your post is greatly appreciated and helpful. Cheers! :clap:
:twothumbsup: Yes! So I can go home now? :)

Actually, I have probably spent a lot more time sitting than I may have led you to believe. It's just that I don't remember it as "work." Once you hit the jhanas, sitting is pretty much the most fun thing to do. When I started getting more serious (like hitting the arupa jhanas), I was taking breaks from work to go sit in my car in the parking lot, or in an empty conference room for a half hour.
To put numbers on it, I was sitting a half hour a day to start. Then an hour. Lately it's 90 minutes/day on average, but if I get the time, why not 2 hours? :-)

Anyway, please PM me or post here, like I said, with any questions. There's also a good Yahoo group led by BV and Sister Khema, where people ask questions about the practice, and other students help out.

Gotta go --
metta,
Jad
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mikenz66
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi 2pennyworth,
2pennyworth wrote: Yeah agreed, and I thought I was practicing "relaxing" effectively in my practice prior to applying Ven V's specific instructions. Like I say, I thought it was "trite" - as in common knowledge and nothing new. But i personally discovered more layers to this relaxing, using this specific constant "relaxing" process applied every time my mind moved and attention got 'snagged' by something, layers which i was completely ignorant of prior to practicing Ven V's specific instructions. But it was maybe just me and my misapplication of other's instructions. ... .
No, I don't think it's "trite". Quite the opposite, in fact. As beeblebrox said above, dealing with the hindrances is a key issue:
beeblebrox wrote: The point of these hindrances is that they interfere with the effectiveness of the practice.

If any one of them is present, then it is a part of practice to figure out what to do with it. I think that is a part of developing the insight.
Various teachers give various strategies. Some work better for some people than for others, so it can be useful to investigate a variety of approaches, since, as in your experience, you may find that a particular approach really helps.

:anjali:
Mike
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2pennyworth
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by 2pennyworth »

mikenz66 wrote: As beeblebrox said above, dealing with the hindrances is a key issue:
beeblebrox wrote: The point of these hindrances is that they interfere with the effectiveness of the practice.

If any one of them is present, then it is a part of practice to figure out what to do with it. I think that is a part of developing the insight.
Various teachers give various strategies. Some work better for some people than for others, so it can be useful to investigate a variety of approaches, since, as in your experience, you may find that a particular approach really helps.

:anjali:
Mike
I think we're all saying the same things here in this regard. :smile: As I stated previously, basically saying the same thing as beeblebrox:
2pennyworth wrote: For what it's worth, I think the pertinent issue here is beginning to see how the way one habitually greets the hindrances has an effect. If one has developed keen mindfulness and collectedness, and are thus able to recognize the hindrance when it arises, the next question is what is mind's usual reaction to it, and can one see that habitual response?
Trite, specifically referring to teaching instructions, but that word is not suitable, no. These teachings are profound.
:anjali:
“We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away.” ~ Chuang Tzu
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Mkoll
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by Mkoll »

2pennyworth,

Even if Ven. V's argument is aligned with the facts, which we will never know, I still think suppression plays a central role in the Teaching. You and Ven. V may have a different idea of what suppression means than what I have in mind when I use the word. Perhaps it is a technical term in his teachings, the meaning of which you are privy to and I am not. To show you what I mean, here are some dictionary definitions of the word with some explanations as to how they relate to the Teachings.
1.
to put an end to the activities of (a person, body of persons, etc.): to suppress the Communist and certain left-leaning parties.
Part of the Path is to put an end to unwholesome activities; Nibbana is the end of greed, hate, and delusion; Nibbana is the end of the round of birth and death, the end of wandering; etc.
2.
to do away with by or as by authority; abolish; stop (a practice, custom, etc.).
One does away with one's old unwholesome ways of living and replaces them with wholesome ways. One suppresses their sensual desire for candy, for example. They are suppressing the experience that they would have had if they'd eaten the candy.
3.
to keep in or repress (a feeling, smile, groan, etc.).
Instead of bursting out in anger at someone when irritation arises, one tries to practice right speech. One is suppressing anger, suppressing the experience of anger.
4.
to withhold from disclosure or publication (truth, evidence, a book, names, etc.).
Same vein as 3.
5.
to stop or arrest (a flow, hemorrhage, cough, etc.).
Same vein as 2.

~~~

My point is that suppress essentially means "to end something by action". It doesn't carry negative connotations on its own. I wouldn't have taken any issue with the statement if the word "oppress" had been used instead of "suppress" because the former term clearly has negative connotations.

Forgive my semantic hand wrangling but I do hope I've made my point.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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2pennyworth
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by 2pennyworth »

Mkoll wrote: My point is that suppress essentially means "to end something by action". It doesn't carry negative connotations on its own. I wouldn't have taken any issue with the statement if the word "oppress" had been used instead of "suppress" because the former term clearly has negative connotations.

Forgive my semantic hand wrangling but I do hope I've made my point.
:anjali:
It is more the negative connotations which the word 'suppress' carries, which I think is troublesome when applied to practice instructions. For me, and I believe most people, suppress means "push down" with force, as you initially pointed out here, quoting the sutta in question:
Mkoll wrote: But if "beat down, constrain, and crush" and that vivid simile don't qualify as suppression, I don't know what could.
Also, forgive me if I'm mistaken, but you seem to be suggesting that the only other alternative to suppression (as in, if anger arises) is to unleash it? As if to some how deny it and "keep it within" through containment, suggesting it has some power or form of it's own. The argument I'm making is that instead of containing anger and suppressing it, one should see the initial manifestation of it arise, recognize it and see it as a impersonal, habitual cause and effect arising which is impermanent and transient; empty. Not to imbue it with 'substance' which needs suppressing in the first place, it'll soon loose it's "power". If something is transient and empty what needs suppressing? Suppressing, to me, implies some sort of continuation of it in some form and affirmation of it (neither affirmation nor negation). Seen this way, this 'anger' just dissipates as smoke does, it only has strength or power if given fuel.

Or that's how I personally view the word 'supress', and why I find it unhelpful in practice terms.

:anjali:
Last edited by 2pennyworth on Fri May 09, 2014 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
“We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away.” ~ Chuang Tzu
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

2pennyworth wrote:
Also, forgive me if I'm mistaken, but you seem to be suggesting that the only other alternative to suppression (as in, if anger arises) is to unleash it? As if to some how deny it and "keep it within" through containment, suggesting it has some power or form of it's own. The argument I'm making is that instead of containing anger and suppressing it, one should see the initial manifestation of it arise, recognize it and see it as a impersonal, habitual cause and effect arising which is impermanent and transient; empty. Not to imbue it with 'substance' which needs suppressing in the first place, it'll soon loose it's "power". If something is transient and empty what needs suppressing? Suppressing, to me, implies some sort of continuation of it in some form and affirmation of it. Seen this way, this 'anger' just dissipates as smoke does, it only has strength or power if given fuel.
Sounds like you are describing Burmese vipassana.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mkoll
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by Mkoll »

2pennyworth wrote:Also, forgive me if I'm mistaken, but you seem to be suggesting that the only other alternative to suppression (as in, if anger arises) is to unleash it? As if to some how deny it and "keep it within" through containment, suggesting it has some power or form of it's own.
If anger has arisen, it's already been unleashed in the mind. At that point, you suppress it by not expressing it bodily or verbally. There are a variety of methods. If your method works for you really well, that's great: I'm truly happy for you. The Buddha taught a lot of different people who had differing personalities and aptitudes. So he taught a lot of different approaches and methods to the same problem. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
2pennyworth wrote:The argument I'm making is that instead of containing anger and suppressing it, one should see the initial manifestation of it arise, recognize it and see it as a impersonal, habitual cause and effect arising which is impermanent and transient; empty. Not to imbue it with 'substance' which needs suppressing in the first place, it'll soon loose it's "power". If something is transient and empty what needs suppressing? Suppressing, to me, implies some sort of continuation of it in some form and affirmation of it (neither affirmation nor negation). Seen this way, this 'anger' just dissipates as smoke does, it only has strength or power if given fuel.
I'd describe that as suppressing the anger with the perception of impermanence. Here's a crude analogy: A fireman suppresses the fire (the anger) with water (the perception of impermanence).

It seems we'll have to agree to disagree here. It's just debate over views, after all. In the end, if you're doing what works to develop wholesome states, that's what's important.

:namaste:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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VinceField
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by VinceField »

If you read the quotes I posted from Bhante's book, you will clearly see that his use of the word suppression signifies a forced blockage of arising hinderances, rather than a mindful allowance followed by a mindful release. It is explained as more of a burying of the hindrance, rather than a proper dissemination via progressive mindful detachment. One can stop the hinderance from arising for a period of time, but this does not mean that the underlying mechanisms driving the hinderance have ceased to exist. One can simply be burying the hinderance under newly acquired mental screens and subconscious programmings without truly ridding oneself from it.

Having switched from Vipassana meditation to Bhante's teachings, I have experienced (to an extent) the validity of this distinction.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

VinceField wrote:If you read the quotes I posted from Bhante's book, you will clearly see that his use of the word suppression signifies a forced blockage of arising hinderances, rather than a mindful allowance followed by a mindful release. It is explained as more of a burying of the hindrance, rather than a proper dissemination via progressive mindful detachment. One can stop the hinderance from arising for a period of time, but this does not mean that the underlying mechanisms driving the hinderance have ceased to exist. One can simply be burying the hinderance under newly acquired mental screens and subconscious programmings without truly ridding oneself from it.

Having switched from Vipassana meditation to Bhante's teachings, I have experienced (to an extent) the validity of this distinction.
So, just to be clear here, you are saying that your above quote from Vimalasarmsi's book is a critique of vipassana meditation.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mkoll
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by Mkoll »

VinceField wrote:If you read the quotes I posted from Bhante's book, you will clearly see that his use of the word suppression signifies a forced blockage of arising hinderances, rather than a mindful allowance followed by a mindful release.
Sorry, I don't see any difference there. I think you're saying the same thing in a softer and fancier way.
VinceField wrote:It is explained as more of a burying of the hindrance, rather than a proper dissemination via progressive mindful detachment.
Same thing.

~~~

I'll be blunt: I think, given the language that you're using, you are blending modern Western psychology, specifically the concept of psychological repression, with the Buddha's teachings from 2400 years ago.

To me, they're incompatible because their fundamental premises are different.

But, like I said, whatever works for you.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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