Sri Lankan monks arrested for insulting Koran

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Re: Sri Lankan monks arrested for insulting Koran

Postby Mkoll » Thu May 08, 2014 10:01 pm

Nothing in particular. I was adding on to Modus' posts.

That's why I said:

Mkoll wrote:But enough of that, :focus:


What do your posts have to do the OP? :smile:

(That's a rhetorical question, by the way.)
Peace,
James
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Re: Sri Lankan monks arrested for insulting Koran

Postby seeker242 » Thu May 08, 2014 10:15 pm

Found this interesting! :namaste:

Chapter Eight
Pacittiya

Part One: The Lie Chapter

2. An insult is to be confessed.

An insult is a gesture or statement, written or spoken, made with the malicious intent of hurting another person's feelings or of bringing him/her into disgrace. The Vibhanga analyzes the full offense under this rule in terms of three factors:

    1) Effort: One insults a person directly to his face, touching on any one of the 10 topics for abuse (akkosa-vatthu) discussed below.

    2) Object: The person is a bhikkhu.

    3) Intention: One wants to humiliate him for malicious reasons.

Effort. The Vibhanga lists ten ways a verbal insult can be phrased: making remarks about the other person's

    race, class, or nationality (You nigger! You bum! You Jew!);

    name (You really are a Dick!);

    family or lineage (You bastard! You son of a bitch!);

    occupation (You pimp! You capitalist pig!);

    craft (What would you expect from a guy who crochets?);

    disease or handicap (Hey, Clubfoot! Spastic!);

    physical characteristics (Hey, Fatty! Beanpole! Shrimp! Hulk!);

    defilements (You control freak! Fool! Queer! Breeder!);

    offenses or attainments (Some stream-winner you are! You liar! You thief!); or

    using an abusive form of address, such as, "You camel! You goat! You ass! You penis! You vagina!" (%) (All five of these come from the Vibhanga.)

These ten topics are called the akkosa-vatthu -- topics for abuse -- and appear in the following training rule as well.

As the examples in the Vibhanga show, the remark that fulfills the factor of effort here must touch on one of these topics for abuse and must be made directly to the listener: "You are X." It may be phrased either as sarcastic praise or as out-and-out abuse. The Commentary and Sub-commentary say that any insulting remark not listed in the Vibhanga would only be grounds for a dukkata, but the Vibhanga defines the topics for abuse in such a way that any term related to them in any way would fulfill this factor here.

Remarks made in an indirect or insinuating manner, though, would not fulfill this factor. Indirect remarks are when the speaker includes himself together with the target of his insult in his statement ("We're all a bunch of fools.") Insinuating remarks are when he leaves it uncertain as to whom he is referring to ("There are camels among us"). Any remark of this sort, if meant as an insult, entails a dukkata regardless of whether the target is a bhikkhu or not.

All of the insults mentioned in the Vibhanga take the form of remarks about the person, whereas insults and verbal abuse at present often take the form of command -- Go to hell! F -- off! etc. -- and the question is whether or not these too would be covered by this rule. Viewed from the standpoint of intent, they fit under the general definition of an insult; but if for some reason they would not fit under this rule, they would in most cases be covered by Pacittiya 54.

Insulting remarks made about someone behind his/her back are dealt with under Pacittiya 13.

Object. This factor is fulfilled for the full offense only if the target of one's insult is a bhikkhu. To insult an unordained person -- according to the Commentary, this runs the gamut from bhikkhunis to all other living beings -- entails a dukkata.

Intent. The Vibhanga defines this factor as "desiring to jeer at, desiring to scoff at, desiring to shame." If, with no insult intended, a bhikkhu jokes about another person's race, etc., he incurs a dubbhasita, regardless of whether the person is lay or ordained, mentioned outright or insinuatingly, and regardless of whether he/she takes it as a joke or an insult. This is the only instance of this class of offense.

The K/Commentary adds result as a fourth factor -- the target of one's insult knows, "He is insulting me" -- but there is no basis for this in either the Vibhanga or the Commentary. If one makes an insulting remark under one's breath, not intending to be heard, or in a foreign language, not intending to be understood, the intention would be to let off steam, which would not qualify as the intention covered by this rule. If one truly wants to humiliate someone, one will make the necessary effort to make that person hear and understand one's words -- but if for some reason that person doesn't hear or understand (a loud noise blots out one's words, one uses a slang term that is new to one's listener), there is nothing in the Vibhanga to indicate that one would escape from the full penalty.

For this reason, whether or not the person addressed actually feels insulted by one's remarks is of no consequence in determining the severity of the offense. If one makes a remark to a fellow bhikkhu, touching on one of the topics for abuse and meaning it as an insult, one incurs a pacittiya even if he takes it as a joke. If one means the remark as a joke, one incurs a dubbhasita even if the other person feels insulted.

Non-offenses. According to the Vibhanga, a bhikkhu who mentions another person's race, etc., commits no offense if he is "aiming at Dhamma, aiming at his benefit, aiming at teaching." The Commentary illustrates this with a bhikkhu saying to a member of the untouchable caste: "You are an untouchable. Don't do any evil. Don't be a person born into misfortune and going on to misfortune."

Another example would be of a teacher who uses insulting language to shame a stubborn disciple. This would entail no offense if done without malice, but one should be very sure of the purity of one's motives and of the beneficial effect of one's words before using language of this sort. The Cullavagga (IX.5.2) states that a bhikkhu is fit to reprove another bhikkhu only if he keeps five points in mind: "I will speak at the right time and not at the wrong time. I will speak about what is factual and not about what is not factual. I will speak with gentleness and not with harshness. I will speak about what is connected with the goal and not about what is not connected with the goal. And I will speak with thoughts of kindness and not with inner hatred."


Summary: An insult made with malicious intent to another bhikkhu is a pacittiya offense.


"To insult an unordained person -- according to the Commentary, this runs the gamut from bhikkhunis to all other living beings -- entails a dukkata."

http://www.nku.edu/~kenneyr/Buddhism/li ... ch8-1.html

Although, I don't know how it would be possible to insult a book of paper. It is people who are insulted.
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Re: Sri Lankan monks arrested for insulting Koran

Postby purple planet » Thu May 08, 2014 10:43 pm

The question is what exactly they said about the book - if they say its advocating violence and it is advocating violence - is it an insult or just a stating of a fact ? if they its a stupid book then maybe that can be considered an insult -

but there is no detail on what exactly they said

just adding cause im bored - and to make it clear - im not saying its ok what they did - or if monks should be allowed to deal with politics - but if they do then by the details known we are not sure that they did something wrong
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance
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Re: Sri Lankan monks arrested for insulting Koran

Postby dhammafriend » Fri May 09, 2014 2:30 pm

Some people call themselves buddhist, or are dressed like monks, but use the Buddhas dispensation to cause a lot of harm.


Whenever the topic of Sri Lanka & Myanmar come up, we get a lot of pearl clutching and moral condemnation. But seeing this as purely a moral / ethic issue ignores all the other factors that lead to these terrible actions by members of the Buddhist community. Its kind of like how US republicans depict women who seek control over their reproductive systems as a bunch of horny sluts who lack Christian values.

First off we need to acknowledge the real changes that are taking place in these societies, Sri Lanka has just emerged from decades of civil war, sustained by a nationalist agenda. On top of that, add the tensions between the various communities (exacerbated by Sinhala attitudes to non-Sinhalese), corruption, poverty in the countryside and you've got a recipe for unrest.

Many Buddhist societies remember the narratives (regardless of the accuracy) of how Buddhism was virtually wiped out in India. There seems to be a strong sentiment of : "never again!" Also, the ongoing attacks on Buddhists in Bangladesh, which neighbors Myanmar. I'm sure the horror stories trickle throughout S.E.A. reaching various Buddhist communities.

Buddhists who take to violence, must feel that Islam is really a threat to their future existence and feel frustrated that their fears are not being addressed on a civil / national level. Nobody woke up one day and said : " Hey, lets go set the local mosque on fire."

Sorry for the rant, all said and done, I would like to see justice for all the muslims who lost family member and property in all this mess. I hope that Sri Lanka & Myanmar can at least give them that.

Metta
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Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.
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Re: Sri Lankan monks arrested for insulting Koran

Postby BlackBird » Fri May 09, 2014 10:08 pm

Dhammafriend, I don't think you need to apologise for your so called rant, it raises some interesting ideas. We as Buddhists shouldn't really be here to judge others - That's a waste of our time and effort that could be better spent on striving for realization. However, it is worthwhile to try to understand the reasons others have behaved this way or that, and to that effect, I think your post has helped me at least, if not others do so. The point about the Muslim conquests of India (where monks were slaughtered by the hundreds) and this fervent belief that they can't allow that to happen again is a very good one - One I hadn't even considered until now.

metta
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Re: Sri Lankan monks arrested for insulting Koran

Postby Dan Rooney » Sat May 10, 2014 12:36 am

dhammafriend wrote:Buddhists who take to violence, must feel that Islam is really a threat to their future existence and feel frustrated that their fears are not being addressed on a civil / national level. Nobody woke up one day and said : " Hey, lets go set the local mosque on fire."

The motives for repression and reaction in Sri Lanka is an empirical matter (and one which is going to be very hard to get a firm hold on) requiring highly specific knowledge (which I don't have) so it's not something which general speculation carried out in the absence of that knowledge can shed much light on. More generally, there isn't an abstract Buddhist (or a Muslim or a Christian or a ....) who takes to violence; there are particular people embedded in massively complex ethno-cultural conflicts with massively complex histories and understanding one probably doesn't do a lot to help one understand another. As for fear of Muslims spreading through SE Asia, not as far as I know. I've lived in Thailand for 14 years and the kind of Islamophobia which is increasingly prevalent in the West is not something I've seen here.
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Re: Sri Lankan monks arrested for insulting Koran

Postby Mr Man » Sat May 10, 2014 8:24 am

I think it's worth mentioning that the group to which these monks are affiliated is an ultra-nationalistic group whose ire is not solely focused on islam.

Although there may be a set of circumstances or causes that allow fascism to arise it still remains unacceptable.
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Re: Sri Lankan monks arrested for insulting Koran

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat May 10, 2014 8:46 am

The Dhammapada, Pairs. Verse 5.

'Nuff said.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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