Kumara wrote:santa100 wrote:Could you provide the Vism. passage that specifically states that (more specifically, the first jhana)? Matter of fact, Vism X.19 even agrees with the Sutta:
I get your point, and agree. Let me be clearer by inserting here what I've written in an appendix of my (almost completed) book:
This in fact agrees with the Suttas and at odds with present-day Theravāda. So, where then does the cut-off-from-the-five-senses jhāna come from?
Earlier in the same book, we find this:
79. At this point, “Quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unprofitable things he enters upon and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought with happiness and bliss born of seclusion” (Vibh 245)….
80. Herein, quite secluded from sense desires means having secluded himself from, having become without, having gone away from, sense desires….
83. But this term “sense desires” should be regarded as including all kinds, that is to say, sense desires as object as given in the Niddesa in the passage beginning, “What are sense desires as object? They are agreeable visible objects…” (Nidd I 1), and the sense desires as defilement given there too and in the Vibhaṅga thus: “Zeal as sense desire (kāma), greed as sense desire, zeal and greed as sense desire, thinking as sense desire, greed as sense desire, thinking and greed as sense desire” 24 (Nidd I 2; Vibh 256). That being so, the words “quite secluded from sense desires” properly mean “quite secluded from sense desires as object,”….
~ Path Of Purification Part 2: Concentration (Samādhi), Chapter IV: The Earth Kasina
So while kāmā means sense desires, here the Visuddhimagga, injecting an idea again, says it should mean “sense desires as object” (vatthukāmā), citing the Niddesa—a commentary which the Theravāda tradition attributes to Āyasmā Sariputta.
Notice that it is equating two distinctively different things. The distinction is clarified in Nibbedhika Sutta (AN6.63):
“There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear… aromas cognizable via the nose… flavors cognizable via the tongue… tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. But these are not sensuality. They are called strings of sensuality in the discipline of the noble ones.”
The passion for his resolves is a man’s sensuality,
not the beautiful sensual pleasures
found in the world.
The passion for his resolves is a man’s sensuality.
The beauties remain as they are in the world,
while the wise, in this regard,
subdue their desire.1
Anyway, the Niddesa in defining “sense desires as object” includes as examples carpets, female & male slaves, goats & sheep, land, gold, villages, royal cities, kingdom, treasury; in short “any enticing object”.
Taking this literally, this suggests that the Visuddhimagga is saying physical seclusion from agreeable or enticing objects only. However, the subsequent paragraph in the Niddesa goes further. Besides past, future and present sense desire; internal, external, and internal and external sense desire; etc., even hellish sense desire (?), it includes all things of the sensual realm, form realm and formless realm. This effectively covers everything in saṁsāra.
So, if the Visuddhimagga meant to include this paragraph (and it doesn’t indicate otherwise), then it’s implying here that the first jhāna entails not only the non-perception of the five senses, but everything.
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hello,
I just wanted to point out a few things from 'my understanding' of whats been posted and what's still missing, I'm not stating any opinions on Jhana or Pali, that's not my intention, just some things that need to be clarified with some interpretation of the Visudhimagga so far as I understand it, and I apologize in advance if it ends up being a wall of text!
At this point, "Quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unprofitable things he enters upon and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied thought and sustained thought with happiness and bliss born of seclusion" (Vbh, 245)...
The starting of "At this point" is important to remember(IMO). All of the beginning chapters and sub-titles of the Visudhimagga all lead into one, the book is continuous, all the chapters before it bring the mediator to where he is now thanks to the practice of sila and concentration as well as finding the proper place/type of meditation/teacher etc.
The Vibhanga [245] that is mentioned in paragraph 79 reads:
...he approaches a secluded abode,a forest,the foot of a tree, a mountain... having little noise, having little tumult, free from atmosphere of humans, secret from men, suitable for retirement...
the Vibhanga explains this as "a place not crowded with people, if it is distant/if it is not crowded it will have little noise" etc. This is what is meant when it's stated
"secluded from sense desires". I don't see any references in Visudhimagga in the pages before the first jhana teaching/training about being secluded from senses as you say
"the Visudhimagga is implying the first jhāna entails not only the non-perception of the five senses, but everything". But see a lot of info on how to pick/prepare and maintain concentration in a place free from distractions etc.
"secluded from unprofitable things", is also important to understand as will be explained below. The Visudhimagga and the Vibhanga[245] that's used in reference both state that unprofitable things(defilement) are to taken as the 5 hindrances.
the Vibangha [245] continues with the defilement(unprofitable things):
...he, abandoning covetousness (for anything) in the world dwells with consciousness freed from covetousness; he cleanses his consciousness of covetousness. Abandoning illwill he dwells..Abandoning sloth and torper...distraction...Doubt....Abandoning these five hindrances (that are) mental corruptions and attenuation of wisdom, he aloof from sense pleasures, aloof from bad states, attains and dwells in the first jhana....
in a nutshell(IMO), because paragraph 79 starts with
"At this point" I understand this as: "now from up to here after purifying your sila and obtaining all the right conditions to reach and maintain your concentration, being free from distractions(
secluded from sense pleasures) and having the 5 five hindrances suppressed(
secluded from unwholesomeness) we now have a chance to obtain jhana"
This is only my nutshell opinion please don't take what I say so literally!
from here on just remember that the Visudhimagga is explaining two methods, one you quoted(
objects of sense desires) and the other that still needs to be quoted,(
sense desires as defilement).
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So while kāmā means sense desires, here the Visuddhimagga, injecting an idea again, says it should mean “sense desires as object” (vatthukāmā), citing the Niddesa—a commentary which the Theravāda tradition attributes to Āyasmā Sariputta.
It is showing the meaning of "sense desires as object"(objects of sense desire) as method one of understanding, it also shows the meaning of sense desires as just desires (defilement) as method two and explains that the first phrase "secluded from sense desires" is both(all desires). Paragraph 83 fully quoted says this.
83. But this term “sense desires” should be regarded as including all kinds, that is to say, sense desires as object as given in the Niddesa in the passage beginning, “What are sense desires as object? They are agreeable visible objects…” (Nidd I 1), and the sense desires as defilement given there too and in the Vibhaṅga thus: “Zeal as sense desire (kāma), greed as sense desire, zeal and greed as sense desire, thinking as sense desire, greed as sense desire, thinking and greed as sense desire” 24 (Nidd I 2; Vibh 256). That being so, the words “quite secluded from sense desires” properly mean “quite secluded from sense desires as object, and express bodily seclusion, while the words "secluded from unprofitable things" properly mean "secluded from sense desires as defilement or from all unprofitable things", and express mental seclusion. And in this case giving up of pleasure in sense desires is indicated by the first sinse it only expresses seclusion from sense desires as object, while acquisition of pleasure in renunciation is indicated by the second since it expresses seclusion from sense desire as defilement".
paragraph 84 then finishes with a reminder that this is the first method (objects of desire):
This, firstly is the method here when the words from sense desires are treated as referring to sense desire is object
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Taking this literally, this suggests that the Visuddhimagga is saying physical seclusion from agreeable or enticing objects only. However, the subsequent paragraph in the Niddesa goes further. Besides past, future and present sense desire; internal, external, and internal and external sense desire; etc., even hellish sense desire (?), it includes all things of the sensual realm, form realm and formless realm. This effectively covers everything in saṁsāra.
So, if the Visuddhimagga meant to include this paragraph (and it doesn’t indicate otherwise),
The two pages describing these lines do not suggest it is" objects only" as shown above, actually paragraphs 85,86,87 go into greater detail (than the objects of sense desires explanation) on how "sense desires" is to understood when it's not object. I have not read the Niddesa is there an English translation online? but looking at how (
Nd.1,1) is cited for the objects and (
Nd.1,2; Vbh.256) is cited for the defilement I'm going on the assumption that they did include this paragraph because paragraph 85 says "and the sense desires as defilement
given there too and in the Vibhanga thus..."
paragraph 85 starts off asking how we should understand sense desires as not objects, but as defilement:
But if they are treated as referring to sense desires as defilement, then it is simply just zeal for sense desires..."
and refers the Vibhanga section[256] for the above by stating which I believe your in agreement with:
"Aloof from sense pleasures, aloof from bad states" means: Therein what are sense pleasures? Wish is sense pleasure, lust is sense pleasure, lustful wish is sense pleasure, thought is sense pleasure, lust is sense pleasure, lustful thought is sense pleasure. These are sense pleasures.
Therein what are bad states? Wish for sense pleasures, illwill, solth, torpor, distraction, remorse, doubt. These are called bad states he is alof. Therefore this is called "aloof from sense pleasures, aloof from bad states".
so with this second method of understanding sense pleasures paragraphs 85, 86, 87 go into detail of how the "lust" is sense desires, and lust and the remaining 5 hindrances are the unprofitable things
and paragraph 87 finishes off the description the the defilement phrase (phase two) by giving numerous examples of the second way of understanding sense desires:
So in this case it should be understood that seclusion by suppression (suspension) of lust is indicated by the phrase quite secluded from sense desires, and seclusion by suppression (suspension) of [all] five hindrances by the phrase secluded from unprofitable things...... Similarly with the three unprofitable roots, that of greed, which has the five cords of sense desire (M.i,85) as it's province, is indicated by the first, and that of hate and delusion, which has their respective provinces the various grounds for annoyance (A.iv,408; v,150), etc., by the second.......
Overall up to this point the Visudhimagga is not talking about objects of sense desire only, and in my limited understanding, with the pages following up to the the first jhana I do not see anything that teaches or "implies" about "non-perception of everything".
for an explanation that's not too
"complicated" I recommend having a listen to Venerable Silananda's course on Visudhimagga, around the 10:30 mark.
http://vipassanasasana.free.fr/=audio/s ... imagga.mp3