Life from what period

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States

Re: Life from what period

Post by Virgo »

I don't believe there is support in the cannon for killing any living thing, nevermind a fetus. I also do not believe there is any indication that a young fetus is not yet a human being. In fact, it would seem, that the kamma involved is just that of a killing a human being. Therefore, the person who does it might re-arise in perdition in hell, etc., and when he or she comes back to the human realm be short- lived, etc.

Of course, if they recognized their error and lived with sila for the rest of their life, they may not have to suffer the effects of that kamma of killing in this life or the next life, or the ones thereafter.... but sooner or later, in the course of time, the result of that kamma will come to ripen and it will be painful. When, by conditions, the time is right, the effect of that killing will arise and be experienced.

Kamma is unerring.

Kein
Last edited by Virgo on Mon May 12, 2014 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Life from what period

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:I don't believe there is support in the cannon for killing any living thing, nevermind a fetus. I also do not believe there is any indication that a young fetus is not yet a human being. In fact, it would seem, that the kamma involved is just that of a killing a human being. Therefore, the person who does it might re-arise in perdition in hell, etc., and when he or she comes back to the human realm be short- lived, etc.

Kamma is unerring.

Kein
The cannon?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States

Re: Life from what period

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:The cannon?
Canon*

Kevin
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Life from what period

Post by robertk »

Dear kevin
It would be great if you could dig out some references on this issue.
Robert
User avatar
ArkA
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:33 pm
Location: Here and now

Re: Life from what period

Post by ArkA »

robertk, in order to prove your viewpoint, the reference from Vinaya Piṭaka is posted below. Anyone can clearly see in those incidents, starting from the highlighted one, Buddha never asked the question "how long has that lady been pregnant?" Note that a question like a 3-month fetus or not never arised!

Image from The Book of the Descipline, Volume I, page 144 (Vinaya Piṭaka, Pārājika Pāḷi, Pārājika 3)

Original rule:
3.Should any bhikkhu intentionally deprive a human being of life, or search for an assassin for him, or praise the advantages of death, or incite him to die (saying): “My good man, what use is this evil, miserable life to you? Death would be better for you than life,” or with such an idea in mind, such a purpose in mind, should in various ways praise the advantages of death or incite him to die, he also is defeated (parajika) and no longer in affiliation.

- page 74 of BMC I (Vinaya, Parajika 3)
Attachments
144.png
144.png (84.06 KiB) Viewed 3630 times
Last edited by ArkA on Mon May 12, 2014 4:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'll restart my yearlong meditation retreat on 15th June 2014, hence will not be here.

"Bhikkhus, there are these three things that shine when exposed, not when concealed. What three? (1) The moon. (2) The sun. (3) The Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata."
- Anguttara Nikaya, 3.131, Paticchanna Sutta

"Silence is the language of God; all else is poor translation."
– Rumi

Introduction: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=20572
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Life from what period

Post by beeblebrox »

Hi all,

I dislike involving myself in this discussion, but in the quote above (if interpreted strictly) the offence is really for the bhikkhu giving an abortive preparation which killed the child (or the fetus; the embryo; or whatever you call it).

In any case, I think that abortion is a difficult issue, and it's still always a choice for those involved... but my feeling is that it's still inappropriate for Ven. Brahm to try to make an analysis like this. (More for the difficulty that it would cause himself and the sangha that he is involved with.)

:anjali:
User avatar
Jetavan
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:45 am
Contact:

Re: Life from what period

Post by Jetavan »

waterchan wrote:
James the Giant wrote: By the way, I think it was Bill Maher who said that he doesn't believe embryos are alive because they can be stored in freezers.
...as can tardigrades and bacteria.
User avatar
ArkA
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:33 pm
Location: Here and now

Re: Life from what period

Post by ArkA »

beeblebrox wrote:Hi all,

I dislike involving myself in this discussion, but in the quote above (if interpreted strictly) the offence is really for the bhikkhu giving an abortive preparation which killed the child (or the fetus; the embryo; or whatever you call it).

In any case, I think that abortion is a difficult issue, and it's still always a choice for those involved... but my feeling is that it's still inappropriate for Ven. Brahm to try to make an analysis like this. (More for the difficulty that it would cause himself and the sangha that he is involved with.)

:anjali:
Appreciate if you read properly the OP and my post before posting. I posted the Vinaya story (pg. 144) to make it clear that the question "how long has that lady been pregnant?" is irrelevant in this rule. I also add the original rule for your reference, so you can see "incitement" also not allowed in this rule.

Thank you.
I'll restart my yearlong meditation retreat on 15th June 2014, hence will not be here.

"Bhikkhus, there are these three things that shine when exposed, not when concealed. What three? (1) The moon. (2) The sun. (3) The Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata."
- Anguttara Nikaya, 3.131, Paticchanna Sutta

"Silence is the language of God; all else is poor translation."
– Rumi

Introduction: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=20572
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Life from what period

Post by beeblebrox »

ArkA wrote: Appreciate if you read properly the OP and my post before posting. I posted the Vinaya story (pg. 144) to make it clear that the question "how long has that lady been pregnant?" is irrelevant in this rule. I also add the original rule for your reference, so you can see "incitement" also not allowed in this rule.
Hi Arka,

The part about the incitement wasn't in your post when I read it. Thank you for sharing it.

:anjali:
User avatar
waterchan
Posts: 699
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 7:17 pm
Location: Kamaloka

Re: Life from what period

Post by waterchan »

Jetavan wrote:
waterchan wrote:
James the Giant wrote: By the way, I think it was Bill Maher who said that he doesn't believe embryos are alive because they can be stored in freezers.
...as can tardigrades and bacteria.
Luckiliy they aren't considered "life" from a Buddhist point of view, AFAIK. That is, one cannot be reborn as a micro-organism.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
User avatar
waterchan
Posts: 699
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 7:17 pm
Location: Kamaloka

Re: Life from what period

Post by waterchan »

ArkA wrote:robertk, in order to prove your viewpoint, the reference from Vinaya Piṭaka is posted below. Anyone can clearly see in those incidents, starting from the highlighted one, Buddha never asked the question "how long has that lady been pregnant?" Note that a question like a 3-month fetus or not never arised!

Image from The Book of the Descipline, Volume I, page 144 (Vinaya Piṭaka, Pārājika Pāḷi, Pārājika 3)

Original rule:
3.Should any bhikkhu intentionally deprive a human being of life, or search for an assassin for him, or praise the advantages of death, or incite him to die (saying): “My good man, what use is this evil, miserable life to you? Death would be better for you than life,” or with such an idea in mind, such a purpose in mind, should in various ways praise the advantages of death or incite him to die, he also is defeated (parajika) and no longer in affiliation.

- page 74 of BMC I (Vinaya, Parajika 3)
The counterargument to this is that a very young fetus is not considered a "human being" or "life". Thus, this Vinaya quote is irrelevant, since it pertains to depriving a human being of life.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Life from what period

Post by beeblebrox »

waterchan wrote:
Jetavan wrote:...as can tardigrades and bacteria.
Luckiliy they aren't considered "life" from a Buddhist point of view, AFAIK. That is, one cannot be reborn as a micro-organism.
This is a picture of tardigrade (aka waterbear, or moss piglet; article here):

Image

Their size is approximately .5 mm long... a grain of table salt (or one of the sand grains in the Ganges River) is .3 mm.

:anjali:
Last edited by beeblebrox on Mon May 12, 2014 5:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
waterchan
Posts: 699
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 7:17 pm
Location: Kamaloka

Re: Life from what period

Post by waterchan »

Ah, so the tardigrade does not classify as a micro-organism. :smile:
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17190
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Life from what period

Post by DNS »

I forget the reference, but the Buddha mentioned that killing a being we can't see (such as a tardigrade) is not an offense. It is about intention with the Dhamma.

An embryo or fetus cannot be seen, although the physician performing the abortion can see the embryo or fetus with the medical equipment and there is intention to kill. Definitely a difficult issue. I guess it can be focused down to when does a human (or animal) life begin?
User avatar
Jetavan
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:45 am
Contact:

Re: Life from what period

Post by Jetavan »

waterchan wrote:Ah, so the tardigrade does not classify as a micro-organism. :smile:
Well, technically, they are micro-organisms, since they are microscopic (pretty much invisible unless aided by a microscope).
Post Reply