I don't believe there is support in the cannon for killing any living thing, nevermind a fetus. I also do not believe there is any indication that a young fetus is not yet a human being. In fact, it would seem, that the kamma involved is just that of a killing a human being. Therefore, the person who does it might re-arise in perdition in hell, etc., and when he or she comes back to the human realm be short- lived, etc.
Of course, if they recognized their error and lived with sila for the rest of their life, they may not have to suffer the effects of that kamma of killing in this life or the next life, or the ones thereafter.... but sooner or later, in the course of time, the result of that kamma will come to ripen and it will be painful. When, by conditions, the time is right, the effect of that killing will arise and be experienced.
Kamma is unerring.
Kein
Life from what period
Re: Life from what period
Last edited by Virgo on Mon May 12, 2014 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Life from what period
The cannon?Virgo wrote:I don't believe there is support in the cannon for killing any living thing, nevermind a fetus. I also do not believe there is any indication that a young fetus is not yet a human being. In fact, it would seem, that the kamma involved is just that of a killing a human being. Therefore, the person who does it might re-arise in perdition in hell, etc., and when he or she comes back to the human realm be short- lived, etc.
Kamma is unerring.
Kein
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Life from what period
Canon*tiltbillings wrote:The cannon?
Kevin
Re: Life from what period
Dear kevin
It would be great if you could dig out some references on this issue.
Robert
It would be great if you could dig out some references on this issue.
Robert
Re: Life from what period
robertk, in order to prove your viewpoint, the reference from Vinaya Piṭaka is posted below. Anyone can clearly see in those incidents, starting from the highlighted one, Buddha never asked the question "how long has that lady been pregnant?" Note that a question like a 3-month fetus or not never arised!
Image from The Book of the Descipline, Volume I, page 144 (Vinaya Piṭaka, Pārājika Pāḷi, Pārājika 3)
Original rule:
Image from The Book of the Descipline, Volume I, page 144 (Vinaya Piṭaka, Pārājika Pāḷi, Pārājika 3)
Original rule:
3.Should any bhikkhu intentionally deprive a human being of life, or search for an assassin for him, or praise the advantages of death, or incite him to die (saying): “My good man, what use is this evil, miserable life to you? Death would be better for you than life,” or with such an idea in mind, such a purpose in mind, should in various ways praise the advantages of death or incite him to die, he also is defeated (parajika) and no longer in affiliation.
- page 74 of BMC I (Vinaya, Parajika 3)
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Last edited by ArkA on Mon May 12, 2014 4:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'll restart my yearlong meditation retreat on 15th June 2014, hence will not be here.
"Bhikkhus, there are these three things that shine when exposed, not when concealed. What three? (1) The moon. (2) The sun. (3) The Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata."
- Anguttara Nikaya, 3.131, Paticchanna Sutta
"Silence is the language of God; all else is poor translation."
– Rumi
Introduction: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=20572
"Bhikkhus, there are these three things that shine when exposed, not when concealed. What three? (1) The moon. (2) The sun. (3) The Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata."
- Anguttara Nikaya, 3.131, Paticchanna Sutta
"Silence is the language of God; all else is poor translation."
– Rumi
Introduction: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=20572
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Re: Life from what period
Hi all,
I dislike involving myself in this discussion, but in the quote above (if interpreted strictly) the offence is really for the bhikkhu giving an abortive preparation which killed the child (or the fetus; the embryo; or whatever you call it).
In any case, I think that abortion is a difficult issue, and it's still always a choice for those involved... but my feeling is that it's still inappropriate for Ven. Brahm to try to make an analysis like this. (More for the difficulty that it would cause himself and the sangha that he is involved with.)
I dislike involving myself in this discussion, but in the quote above (if interpreted strictly) the offence is really for the bhikkhu giving an abortive preparation which killed the child (or the fetus; the embryo; or whatever you call it).
In any case, I think that abortion is a difficult issue, and it's still always a choice for those involved... but my feeling is that it's still inappropriate for Ven. Brahm to try to make an analysis like this. (More for the difficulty that it would cause himself and the sangha that he is involved with.)
Re: Life from what period
...as can tardigrades and bacteria.waterchan wrote:James the Giant wrote: By the way, I think it was Bill Maher who said that he doesn't believe embryos are alive because they can be stored in freezers.
Re: Life from what period
Appreciate if you read properly the OP and my post before posting. I posted the Vinaya story (pg. 144) to make it clear that the question "how long has that lady been pregnant?" is irrelevant in this rule. I also add the original rule for your reference, so you can see "incitement" also not allowed in this rule.beeblebrox wrote:Hi all,
I dislike involving myself in this discussion, but in the quote above (if interpreted strictly) the offence is really for the bhikkhu giving an abortive preparation which killed the child (or the fetus; the embryo; or whatever you call it).
In any case, I think that abortion is a difficult issue, and it's still always a choice for those involved... but my feeling is that it's still inappropriate for Ven. Brahm to try to make an analysis like this. (More for the difficulty that it would cause himself and the sangha that he is involved with.)
Thank you.
I'll restart my yearlong meditation retreat on 15th June 2014, hence will not be here.
"Bhikkhus, there are these three things that shine when exposed, not when concealed. What three? (1) The moon. (2) The sun. (3) The Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata."
- Anguttara Nikaya, 3.131, Paticchanna Sutta
"Silence is the language of God; all else is poor translation."
– Rumi
Introduction: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=20572
"Bhikkhus, there are these three things that shine when exposed, not when concealed. What three? (1) The moon. (2) The sun. (3) The Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata."
- Anguttara Nikaya, 3.131, Paticchanna Sutta
"Silence is the language of God; all else is poor translation."
– Rumi
Introduction: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=20572
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Re: Life from what period
Hi Arka,ArkA wrote: Appreciate if you read properly the OP and my post before posting. I posted the Vinaya story (pg. 144) to make it clear that the question "how long has that lady been pregnant?" is irrelevant in this rule. I also add the original rule for your reference, so you can see "incitement" also not allowed in this rule.
The part about the incitement wasn't in your post when I read it. Thank you for sharing it.
Re: Life from what period
Luckiliy they aren't considered "life" from a Buddhist point of view, AFAIK. That is, one cannot be reborn as a micro-organism.Jetavan wrote:...as can tardigrades and bacteria.waterchan wrote:James the Giant wrote: By the way, I think it was Bill Maher who said that he doesn't believe embryos are alive because they can be stored in freezers.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
Re: Life from what period
The counterargument to this is that a very young fetus is not considered a "human being" or "life". Thus, this Vinaya quote is irrelevant, since it pertains to depriving a human being of life.ArkA wrote:robertk, in order to prove your viewpoint, the reference from Vinaya Piṭaka is posted below. Anyone can clearly see in those incidents, starting from the highlighted one, Buddha never asked the question "how long has that lady been pregnant?" Note that a question like a 3-month fetus or not never arised!
Image from The Book of the Descipline, Volume I, page 144 (Vinaya Piṭaka, Pārājika Pāḷi, Pārājika 3)
Original rule:3.Should any bhikkhu intentionally deprive a human being of life, or search for an assassin for him, or praise the advantages of death, or incite him to die (saying): “My good man, what use is this evil, miserable life to you? Death would be better for you than life,” or with such an idea in mind, such a purpose in mind, should in various ways praise the advantages of death or incite him to die, he also is defeated (parajika) and no longer in affiliation.
- page 74 of BMC I (Vinaya, Parajika 3)
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: Life from what period
This is a picture of tardigrade (aka waterbear, or moss piglet; article here):waterchan wrote:Luckiliy they aren't considered "life" from a Buddhist point of view, AFAIK. That is, one cannot be reborn as a micro-organism.Jetavan wrote:...as can tardigrades and bacteria.
Their size is approximately .5 mm long... a grain of table salt (or one of the sand grains in the Ganges River) is .3 mm.
Last edited by beeblebrox on Mon May 12, 2014 5:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Re: Life from what period
Ah, so the tardigrade does not classify as a micro-organism.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: Life from what period
I forget the reference, but the Buddha mentioned that killing a being we can't see (such as a tardigrade) is not an offense. It is about intention with the Dhamma.
An embryo or fetus cannot be seen, although the physician performing the abortion can see the embryo or fetus with the medical equipment and there is intention to kill. Definitely a difficult issue. I guess it can be focused down to when does a human (or animal) life begin?
An embryo or fetus cannot be seen, although the physician performing the abortion can see the embryo or fetus with the medical equipment and there is intention to kill. Definitely a difficult issue. I guess it can be focused down to when does a human (or animal) life begin?
Re: Life from what period
Well, technically, they are micro-organisms, since they are microscopic (pretty much invisible unless aided by a microscope).waterchan wrote:Ah, so the tardigrade does not classify as a micro-organism.