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masturbation what's wrong? - Page 11 - Dhamma Wheel

masturbation what's wrong?

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christopher:::
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby christopher::: » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:12 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:01 am


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christopher:::
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby christopher::: » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:16 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:38 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:48 am

Christopher,

Whether you respond to me or not, look at what your first reference to Will Robinson; look at my response which contained this line has little to worry about and then look at how you used it in your rersponse. Did your response actually address my point? Did your initial "will Robinson" comment address Higgins' point? There is something for you to learn here.

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christopher:::
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby christopher::: » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:23 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:00 am


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BlackBird
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby BlackBird » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:18 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Jechbi
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Jechbi » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:46 pm


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kc2dpt
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:41 pm

- Peter


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kc2dpt
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:53 pm

To address a point that's come up a few times...

While I don't think that engaging in sexual activity necessarily puts one on a slippery slope to sexual deviancy, I do think it is the Buddha's teaching that whatever we engage in contributes to strengthening that habit, creates underlying tendencies to continue that habit, and in the case of unwholesome activities strengthens our bonds to samsara.

In other words... what's wrong with masturbation? Every time we engage in it we strengthen the tendency to engage in it in the future, we strengthen our delusion than it is good or harmless, we tighten our bonds to samsara. (insert joke about tightening bonds and BDSM here)

That said, I think we can say the same thing for eating ice-cream. The more times we finish off dinner with a bowl of ice-cream the closer we are going to get to the point where we feel the meal just isn't complete without that bowl of ice-cream.

I have experienced abstaining from something for a long time and then finding as a result I don't desire it as much any more. For me it's Coca Cola. I've drunk Diet Coke for so long that regular Coke tastes way too sweet and I no longer crave it. For my wife it's meat. She's abstained for so long she has no more craving for it. I think indulging in something, while not necessarily lead to us wanting it more, does lead to us wanting it the same. The aim of the Path is to want it less.
- Peter


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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:01 pm

- Peter


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Jechbi
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Jechbi » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:05 pm

Wow, that was awesome, Peter.

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:09 pm


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kc2dpt
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:58 pm

- Peter


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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:02 pm

"if you are a lay person, and you want to have sex with your appropriate partner, you should respond to your desires how?"

I recall someone asked about one's relationship to one's child. He didn't ask "How should one relate to one's child?" He acknowledged the Buddha's teachings on attachment, noted his own attachment, and asked how others here with kids deal with this. A few of us answered what we do. It was a good question which in turn allowed for good answers. As such, one might ask "Given the Buddha's teachings on the dangers of sensual indulgence, how do those of you who are married relate to you're spouses?" To such a question I could answer from my own experience, and I could point out how my choices do and do not accord with the Buddha's teachings.
- Peter


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kc2dpt
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:14 pm

Frankly I am just not comfortable with answering "there is nothing wrong with X" when what I really mean is "X is the wrong way to attain goal Y but then again there are so many things keeping us from Y that if you don't want to worry about X right now and instead focus on something else relating to Y then that's fine." Again, it comes from this Christian background of "X is wrong and if you do X then you are bad and I'm not going to hang out with you and you can't receive communion" etc, etc. Buddhism just ain't like that.* "X is the wrong way to attain Y. But even if you choose to do X you can still hang out here and talk and learn and do all the same stuff people who don't do X do. We all move down the Path at our own pace."

Maybe any question asking "what is wrong with X" should be changed to "what does the Buddha teach are the drawbacks of X"?

(* Jews aren't like that either. Perhaps that's why I don't assume these hangups in others. No one ever says "Oh you don't keep kosher? Then you can't carry the Torah." :shrug: )
- Peter


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christopher:::
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby christopher::: » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:31 pm

Excellent points, Peter. One of the things that made me extremely uncomfortable with the Higgins example is that he was talking about sexual relations as a business situation. That's what set my "alarm" off. The idea of bondage or sexual play for a commited couple with an established relationship where metta is present is very different from a situation where one is paying for sex with a complete stranger, imo.

To encourage prostitution without consideration for its effects on the people involved in that as employment just seems well, counter to Buddha's position, for me. Maybe not in all cases but in many (perhaps most)... Kitty's club may employ enlightened staff who do their work as a form of dharma practice, but i tend to think that's quite unlikely. The "statement of ethics" was very good, but can be deceptive if one thinks this somehow means all employees there are adopting these ethics mindfully, or really wish to be doing what they are doing as a profession. Sex slavery is a big problem in our world now, and many women are forced into prostitution. A statement of ethics can make it sound like Kitty's is different, and serve as a good cover.

It's one thing to talk about masterbation, and the dangers there. Once we start bringing in prostitution and presenting it as exemplary and "positive" it just sounds like self-deception to me, no offense, Tilt. That's in large part why i felt that encouraging such behavior (especially to pay for sex) can turn out to be such a "slippery slope"...
Last edited by christopher::: on Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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BlackBird
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby BlackBird » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:19 pm

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:11 pm



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