Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

:goodpost:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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bharadwaja
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by bharadwaja »

bharadwaja wrote:But he was done with striving for the cessation of suffering after his enlightenment.
The Buddha's attainment of nibbana was an enlightenment indeed (in a mental sense) but it did not mean he had made himself permanently incapable of experiencing dukkha, but that he knew how to avoid dukkha deliberately and consciously, by striving on the eightfold path. The difference therefore between an arahant and non-arahant is just that for an arahant, his knowledge is complete, while the non-arahant is someone still learning the ropes.
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by tiltbillings »

bharadwaja wrote:
I'm not sure how that fits with
‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānātī’’ti.
He knows: "Birth is ended, the holy life is established, what was to be done is done, there is no more beyond."
Do you mean to say that the claim "what was to be done is done" does not fit with the idea of an arahant still being a śramaṇa i.e. striver? That may perhaps be true depending on what is meant by karaṇīyaṃ ("to be done"). I think śrama ("striving") is not included in the meaning of karaṇīyaṃ. However, the fact that Buddha still lived the life of a śramaṇa even after his supposed enlightenment is sufficient proof that the śramaṇa ideal is not ended after one becomes an arahant. Indeed the very opposite is true - i.e. the arhant is the living exemplar of the śramaṇic ideal, one who has silenced his kilesas and conquered Māra.
Strive. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. As the teachings make quite clear, once awakening -- the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion -- is achieved, there is no more striving, no more struggling. The striving is done, finished, which is very neatly illustrated by Mara confronting the arahant/the Buddha stories. Here there is no struggle, no striving:
  • Setting at Savatthi. Then, in the morning, the bhikkhuni Sela dressed... she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding.

    Then Mara the Evil One, desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in the bhikkhuni Sela, desiring to make her fall away from concentration, approached her and addressed her in verse:

    By whom has this puppet been created?
    Where is the maker of the puppet?
    Where has the puppet arisen?
    Where does the puppet cease?


    Then it occurred to the bhikkhuni Sela: "Now who is this...? This is Mara the Evil One... desiring to make me fall away from concentration."

    Then the bhikkhuni Sela, having understood, "This is Mara the Evil One," replied to him in verses:

    This puppet is not made by itself,
    Nor is this misery made by another.
    It has come to be dependent on a cause,
    When the cause dissolves then it will cease.

    As when a seed is sown in a field
    It grows depending on a pair of factors:
    It requires both the soil's nutrients
    And a steady supply of moisture.

    Just so the aggregates and elements,
    And these six bases of sensory contact,
    Have come to be dependent on a cause;
    When the cause dissolves they will cease.


    Then Mara the Evil One, realizing, "The bhikkhuni Sela knows me," sad and disappointed, disappeared right there.
    SN 5.9 PTS: S i 134 CDB i 228
  • [Mara:]
    Of what they say,
    'This is mine';
    and those who say,
    'Mine':
    If your intellect's here,
    contemplative,
    you can't escape
    from me.

    [The Buddha:]
    What they speak of
    isn't mine,
    and I'm not one of those
    who speak it.
    Know this, Evil One:
    you won't even see
    my tracks.


    Then Mara the Evil One — sad & dejected at realizing, "The Blessed One knows me; the One Well-gone knows me" — vanished right there.
    SN 4.19 PTS: S i 114 CDB i 208
No struggle, no striving. With the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion the relationship the arahant/the Buddha has with samsara/the world/Mara is of a completely different order. Mara has absolutely no hold on the arahant/the Buddha. The arahant is "unsullied by the world" (SN 22.94).

bharadwaja: "an arhant is still a striver." Not at all.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by bharadwaja »

The striving is of 2 kinds - one is the striving of the bhikku to comprehend the nature of reality (i.e. the dhamma). The second is to put the dhamma into practise.

The striving that I meant for the arahant is the second one. One does not stop striving to live the dhammic life just because one has become an arahant. But striving to comprehend the dhamma comes to an end once one becomes an arahant.
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by tiltbillings »

bharadwaja wrote:The striving is of 2 kinds - one is the striving of the bhikku to comprehend the nature of reality (i.e. the dhamma). The second is to put the dhamma into practise.

The striving that I meant for the arahant is the second one. One does not stop striving to live the dhammic life just because one has become an arahant. But striving to comprehend the dhamma comes to an end once one becomes an arahant.
The arahant does not need to strive to put the Dhamma into practice. The striving is finished with awakening; it is a matter of simply living the Dhamma as an expression of the transformation of one's life via the freedom from greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Precisely, I agree. :goodpost:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by bharadwaja »

tiltbillings wrote:it is a matter of simply living the Dhamma as an expression of the transformation of one's life via the freedom from greed, hatred, and delusion.
Are you saying that the arahant as a result of becoming an arahant becomes incapable of feeling lust, delusion, greed, hate etc rather than avoiding them consciously by his self-determination, and not letting them take control of his mind?

Or are you saying that such a conscious & determined avoidance should not be called "striving"?
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by tiltbillings »

bharadwaja wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:it is a matter of simply living the Dhamma as an expression of the transformation of one's life via the freedom from greed, hatred, and delusion.
Are you saying that the arahant as a result of becoming an arahant becomes incapable of feeling lust, delusion, greed, hate etc rather than striving to avoid them consciously, and not let them take control of his mind?
Are you implying, or saying directly, that an arahant or Buddha does experience greed, hatred, and delusion?

If nibbana, asankhata, is not the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion, then the texts are simply wrong. But do show us that the texts say quite clearly the texts, teachings of the Buddha, tell us that the arahant and the Buddha experience(d) greed, hatred, and delusion. That should be simple enough.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

He is saying an arahant is no longer bothered, concerned or beset by such matters.

It is beyond his "Interest" to consider such 'banalities'.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by bharadwaja »

tiltbillings wrote:Are you implying, or saying directly, that an arahant or Buddha does experience greed, hatred, and delusion?
They are capable of feeling lust,delusion,greed and hate, but by diligently practising the dhamma (what I call striving), their mind remains in their control and not under the control of the kilesas. So they don't experience greed, lust, hate and delusion as a result of fully understanding & practising the dhamma, not if they stop practising it.
If nibbana, asankhata, is not the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion, then the texts are simply wrong.
Quite the opposite, if someone has destroyed the kilesas beyond redemption, then there would be no continuing need for them to practise the dhamma. However the texts do show us that the Buddha (and other arahants) continued to practise the dhamma. That can only mean the kilesas were not allowed to invade the arahant's mind anymore.

It may be your interpretation of the texts that is wrong.
But do show us that the texts say quite clearly the texts, teachings of the Buddha, tell us that the arahant and the Buddha experience(d) greed, hatred, and delusion. That should be simple enough
.

I did not say that the Arahants experience(d) them, but rather that they are/were still capable of experiencing them if they gave up striving against them (i.e. stopped practising the dhamma).
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by tiltbillings »

bharadwaja wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Are you implying, or saying directly, that an arahant or Buddha does experience greed, hatred, and delusion?
They are capable of feeling lust,delusion,greed and hate, but by diligently practising the dhamma (what I call striving), their mind remains in their control and not under the control of the kilesas. So they don't experience greed, lust, hate and delusion as a result of fully understanding & practising the dhamma, not if they stop practising it.
And how do you know that arahants and the Buddha are capable experiencing "lust, delusion and hate?"
If nibbana, asankhata, is not the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion, then the texts are simply wrong.
Quite the opposite, if someone has destroyed the kilesas beyond redemption, then there would be no need for them to continue to practise the dhamma. However the texts do show us that the Buddha (and other arahants) continued to practise the dhamma. That can only mean the kilesas were not allowed to invade the arahant's mind anymore. It may be your interpretation of the texts that is wrong.
The most straightforward definition the Buddha gives of Nibbana is:
  • That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is
    nibbana.
    -- S.N. IV 251 and IV 321
And we see:
  • That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is
    asankhata.
    -- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362
The suttas are quite straightforward here.
But do show us that the texts say quite clearly the texts, teachings of the Buddha, tell us that the arahant and the Buddha experience(d) greed, hatred, and delusion. That should be simple enough
.

I did not say that the Arahants experience(d) them, but rather that they are/were still capable of experiencing them if they give up striving against them (i.e. stopped practising the dhamma).
Yes, so you say, but so you have not shown.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by bharadwaja »

tiltbillings wrote:And how do you know that arahants and the Buddha are capable experiencing "lust, delusion and hate?"
The canon itself states so - Māra repeatedly tries to enter (i.e. invade the bodies & minds of) the Buddha and other arahants, but the Buddha and other arahants are skilled in warding him off. However, see this when Māra enters Mahā Moggallāna's body without his knowledge.

Māra is the personification of the kilesas such as lust, delusion & hate and thereby attempts to cause spiritual "death".

The Kayagata-sati Sutta: In whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is not developed, not pursued, Mara gains entry, Mara gains a foothold.

In this sutta, the Buddha claims that an Arahant blinds Māra (so Māra can't even find the Arahant, much less enter/battle him). In another sutta the Buddha mentions that he has slain Māra (i.e. "killed death"). however other suttas do mention Arahants (like Mahā Moggallāna above) or the Buddha being troubled by Māra, so the canon does not mean that Māra has been literally or permanently killed.
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by tiltbillings »

bharadwaja wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And how do you know that arahants and the Buddha are capable experiencing "lust, delusion and hate?"
The canon itself states so - Māra repeatedly tries to enter (i.e. invade the bodies & minds of) the Buddha and other arahants, but the Buddha and other arahants are skilled in warding him off. However, see this when Māra enters Mahā Moggallāna's body without his knowledge.

The Kayagata-sati Sutta: In whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is not developed, not pursued, Mara gains entry, Mara gains a foothold.

In this sutta, the Buddha claims that an Arahant blinds Māra (so Māra can't even find the Arahant, much less enter/battle him). In another sutta the Buddha mentions that he has slain Māra (i.e. "killed death"). however other suttas do mention Arahants (like Mahā Moggallāna above) or the Buddha being troubled by Māra, so the canon does not mean that Māra has been literally or permanently killed.
The problem with your contention is that you totally ignore the definitions of awakening and the destruction of the roots given to us by the Buddha. As for Mara, do the arahants really face a threat from him? It seems not, and I am waiting for you to show us an instance of an arahant defeated by Mara or one who just stopped practicing and became a worldling again.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

This Sutta, The Buddha explains how The Evil One gains a foothold:

Kayagata-sati Sutta: Mindfulness Immersed in the Body

In this one, it is amply demonstrated that even though Mara tries, he does not.

Majjhima Nikaaya
Sutta 50.

You cannot find sources to denote that an arahant is capable of going backwards and staying there.

The Enlightened ones may well be subject to the horrors of Samsara. But they capably recognise, discard and dismiss them, as one might flick off an ant from one's arm.

Still no go, friend.

Keep trying....

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Post by barcsimalsi »

The sutta stated that Arahant is not exempt from bodily sickness so what if an arahant was diagnosed with huntington’s disease which leads to cognitive impairment, memory deficit and various psychiatric symptoms?

How is it possible that the culmination of right mindfulness be sustained in this case?

Sorry for being little off topic.
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