With what do you experience this?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by santa100 »

kirk5a wrote:How about we both admit we haven't personally attained the state in question, and therefore our own personal words about it are mere guessing?
Good point there. Ven. Bodhi's note in AN 10.6 clarified:
This attainment is not the fruition that occurs for a few moments immediately following the path, but a special meditative state accessible only to those who have already attained one of the four paths and its subsequent fruition. The attainment, as shown in this sutta, does not take any of the mundane, conditioned meditation objects as its support; its support is the unconditioned nibbana, experienced directly and immediately. The commentaries hold that this attainment is graded as fourfold according to the four stages of realization (from stream-entry to arahantship).
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equilibrium
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by equilibrium »

SarathW wrote:With what do you experience this?
Supra-mundane consciousness.
If there are no six senses how do you experience it?
Who says there are no six senses?.....Is it not true if one were to experience it, one is that of a deluded being?.....a deluded being has senses does he/she not? so if one who has experienced it, does that mean all perception stops?.....Buddha had no perception?.....impossible!

Something is missing isn't there?.....knowing!

(edit: mind replaced by "Supra-mundane")
Last edited by equilibrium on Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SarathW
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by SarathW »

Thank you all for your replies.
Is this experience is something similar to Nirodha-samāpatti?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
chownah
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by chownah »

kirk5a wrote:
chownah wrote: I don't understand what point you are making......but I'll just say that the eyes arises from a worldly standpoint when the body is differentiated based on the different types of sensations experienced and when that differentiation ceases it can be said that the eye stops but it doesn't mean that sensations stop, only that it is not differentiated into components
As quoted earlier: nibbana - "where there is nothing felt"

You are clearly not talking about a state in which nothing is felt.
If something is felt as a result of the DO concept of Feeling then I guess I am in that sense saying that nothing is felt in that in my view any word, concept, idea, etc. is an objectified thing which only results from differentiation of body/sensation/experience and so with the ceasing of differentiations there is a ceasing of the Feelings which arise through differentiation. Just as I said with consciousness, there may be some different kind of feeling which arises but again this is probably objectifying the un-objectified I guess and with the stopping of the senses there is no basis for talking about objects at all.

Also, I am not trying to say that nibbana follows immediately upon stoping of the senses....I.e. I am not saying that on Friday afternoon at 3:14 the senses stopped and nibanna was entered. My view is that the stopping of the senses happens incrementally and it may take years from the first hint of this happening to full and complete stopping and that one probably needs to master the technique to accomplish this before all of the knowledge can be extracted from the experience and it can proceed to its fullest manifestation......BUT I MAY VERY WELL BE WRONG ABOUT THIS and really, I think that the cessation of the six senses is profound enough that we need not worry too much about the mechanics of what follows at least not until we get there.....I guess....
chownah
P.S. I just took a look at the OP and the first line is "The dimension of non-objectification, although it may not be described, may be realized through direct experience." In my view all descriptions are fabricated objects that rely on objectification for their formulation....in that sense it would be clearly be impossible to describe a state (the dimension of non-objectification for example) where no objects exist.
chownah
SarathW
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by SarathW »

Hi all
Thanks for your valuable input.
I have a question re following passage. I thought it is better to include here rather than raising a new question.

===========================
Other passages mention a consciousness in this freedom — "without feature or surface, without end, luminous all around" — lying outside of time and space, experienced when the six sense spheres stop functioning (MN 49). In this it differs from the consciousness-khandha, which depends on the six sense spheres and can be described in such terms as near or far, past, present, or future. Consciousness without feature is thus the awareness of Awakening. And the freedom of this awareness carries over even when the awakened person returns to ordinary consciousness. As the Buddha said of himself:
"Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness... birth... aging... death... suffering & stress... defilement, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness."
— AN 10.81

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... andha.html

=====================
My questions:
a)How consciousness be luminous all around if it hasn’t got features?
b)How consciousness can be experienced if there is no six sense spheres?
C) Is Ven. Thanissaaro talking here about a living Arahant?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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equilibrium
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by equilibrium »

SarathW wrote: a)How consciousness be luminous all around if it hasn’t got features?
b)How consciousness can be experienced if there is no six sense spheres?
C) Is Ven. Thanissaaro talking here about a living Arahant?
a) Just like the sun, it is constantly shining, without obstructions therefore luminous all round.

b) Can we be conscious of something without consciousness? If there is something to be experienced then without perception, it cannot be perceived. Can a sound be heard if there is no ear/consciousness?.....yet there is a sound. Awareness? So Nibbana can be experienced through awareness. Yet under MN 49 noted clearly beyond description.....beyond range:
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This is termed the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his assertion, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why is that? Because it lies beyond range."
Has to be experienced by the seeker.

c) (Nibbana as living experience by Lily de Silva):
The simile used in the Mahaa Assapura Sutta to describe the enlightenment experience of the arahant is that of a pond of crystal-clear water where a man standing on its bank sees the pebbles, shells, etc., in its bed and shoals of fish swimming in the water. But the Buddha's enlightenment experience is like the panoramic view one gets from the summit of a mountain, and this is exactly the imagery Mahaabrahmaa uses to describe the Buddha's enlightenment experience.

The other facets of the enlightenment experience may be parts of the spiritual panorama seen in different directions from the vantage point of reality. Whatever the pattern may be, an arahant's enlightenment is a much less significant, much less dramatic experience than that of the Buddha, which is so profound, multifaceted, rich, and unique.
Reality check.....even an arahant here is still under delusion.....yet enough to escape samsara.
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kirk5a
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by kirk5a »

equilibrium wrote: Reality check.....even an arahant here is still under delusion
Not true.
And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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equilibrium
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by equilibrium »

kirk5a wrote:Not true.
yes & no.....it depends on the point of reference.

Well, like anything else, for anything to exist it must depend on something else.....a point of reference.
Like a sun that shines but if there are no walls, how can there be any shadows cast?.....it does not land.

Just like any tree, there are many branches. Without the branches, the tree cannot exist.....when we zoom out of the branch, we see other branches.....yet they all belong to the same tree.

So the question is do we see only a branch and ignore the tree?.....or.....do we accept branches as part of a tree?
More importantly.....are we even "aware" that there is a tree to begin with?
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equilibrium
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by equilibrium »

SarathW wrote:b) How consciousness can be experienced if there is no six sense spheres?
Well this is what it sounds like when it happens as per "Mind like fire unbound" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
The mind at this point attains Deathlessness, although there is no sense of 'I' in the attainment. There is simply the realization, 'There is this.' From this point onward the mind experiences mental & physical phenomena with a sense of being dissociated from them. One simile for this state is that of a hide removed from the carcass of a cow: Even if the hide is then placed back on the cow, one cannot say that it is attached as before, because the connective tissues that once held the hide to the carcass — in other words, passion & desire — have all been cut (by the knife of discernment). The person who has attained the goal — called a Tathāgata in some contexts, an arahant in others — thus lives out the remainder of his/her life in the world, but independent of it.
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mirco
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by mirco »

SarathW wrote:The dimension of non-objectification, although it may not be described, may be realized through direct experience.

"Monks, that dimension should be experienced where the eye [vision] stops and the perception [label] of form fades. That dimension should be experienced where the ear stops and the perception of sound fades... where the nose stops and the perception of aroma fades... where the tongue stops and the perception of flavor fades... where the body stops and the perception of tactile sensation fades... where the intellect stops and the perception of idea/phenomenon fades: That dimension should be experienced."— SN 35.116

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e/2-1.html

=======================================


If there are no six senses how do you experience it?
MN43
11. "Friend, with what does one understand a state that can be known?"
"Friend, one understands a state that can be known with the eye of wisdom."


Comment: That means the clear mind that doesn’t have any craving in it; the pure mind. That’s how you really recognize these states for what they are. You kind of guess when you’re thinking about them: "Maybe I’m in that state, maybe I’m not." But when you’re in that state and you cognize it, right at that moment, you don’t need to verbalize: "I’m in the realm of this or that"; you know it, and you see it with this pure mind.
/Study/Talks/Transcripts/MN-043
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mirco
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by mirco »

SarathW wrote:The dimension of non-objectification, although it may not be described, may be realized through direct experience.
"Monks, that dimension should be experienced where the eye [vision] stops and the perception [label] of form fades. That dimension should be experienced where the ear stops and the perception of sound fades... where the nose stops and the perception of aroma fades... where the tongue stops and the perception of flavor fades... where the body stops and the perception of tactile sensation fades... where the intellect stops and the perception of idea/phenomenon fades: That dimension should be experienced."— SN 35.116
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e/2-1.html
=======================================
If there are no six senses how do you experience it?
Hi,

that qoute comes from the article, but I cannot find the Sutta anywhere.

http://www.palicanon.org/index.php/sutt ... ense-bases

Can someone please help me finding it online? (Pāḷi would be ok, but english is preferred.)
Or at least give me the (pāḷi) name of that Sutta?


Kind Regards,
Mirco
daverupa
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by daverupa »

mirco wrote:that qoute comes from the article, but I cannot find the Sutta anywhere.

http://www.palicanon.org/index.php/sutt ... ense-bases
The citation is for SN 35.116, which can be found here by searching for the string "116 (3) Going to the End of the World".

But there is no talk of "that dimension... where...", only Ananda giving details about this utterance by the Buddha:
Bhikkhus, I say that the end of the world cannot be known, seen, or reached by travelling. Yet, bhikkhus, I also say that without reaching the end of the world there is no making an end to suffering.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
chownah
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by chownah »

SarathW wrote:Hi all
Thanks for your valuable input.
I have a question re following passage. I thought it is better to include here rather than raising a new question.

===========================
Other passages mention a consciousness in this freedom — "without feature or surface, without end, luminous all around" — lying outside of time and space, experienced when the six sense spheres stop functioning (MN 49). In this it differs from the consciousness-khandha, which depends on the six sense spheres and can be described in such terms as near or far, past, present, or future. Consciousness without feature is thus the awareness of Awakening. And the freedom of this awareness carries over even when the awakened person returns to ordinary consciousness. As the Buddha said of himself:
"Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness... birth... aging... death... suffering & stress... defilement, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness."
— AN 10.81

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... andha.html

=====================
My questions:
a)How consciousness be luminous all around if it hasn’t got features?
b)How consciousness can be experienced if there is no six sense spheres?
C) Is Ven. Thanissaaro talking here about a living Arahant?
I happened upon a sutta which seems to address the question of how consciousness can be experienced if there is no six sense spheres.........
SN22.55
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it stands still. Owing to its stillness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

This excerpt comes from very nearly the end of the sutta and it might be good to read some or all of what precedes.

Also, isn't there some other thread where unestablished consciousness was being discussed? If someone remembers where it is can they post that info here?
chownah
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mirco
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by mirco »

All,

nice discussion. Now, why not experiencing it, instead of only talking 'bout it all the time...

(I know, it's easier said then done.)

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SarathW
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by SarathW »

The cessation here mean the cessation of the spheres of contact.

P 501 - Sermon 23

http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... lled_V.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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