Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

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someguysomeguy
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Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby someguysomeguy » Fri May 23, 2014 9:28 am

The debate about rebirth is going on for a while.

While we cannot say rebirth is not a part of Buddhism since the entire basis of Buddhist philosophy is Samsara and breaking away from Samsara , there should be some conclusive evidence for it.

I dont like research by Ian stevenson etc because those are based on flimsy grounds (like evidence from children etc)...

If we go into the literature, Buddha says that Rebirth can be seen in the 4th Jhana . Has anyone in this forum seen rebirth or does anyone know of any Buddhist Monk to have seen rebirth?.

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri May 23, 2014 9:53 am

I recently saw this on another website, if it interests you.

Of course, you still should investigate such matters for yourself....

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/681034- ... n-of-body/

:namaste:
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Zom » Fri May 23, 2014 10:05 am


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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby suwapan » Fri May 23, 2014 10:16 am

someguysomeguy wrote:
Has anyone in this forum seen rebirth or does anyone know of any Buddhist Monk to have seen rebirth?.


Has anyone seen the wind?

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri May 23, 2014 11:40 am

Rebirth can be seen daily, whenever a new being comes into existence. That is evidence enough for someone who has the eye of faith to make the connection to death, which can also be seen daily. The flow of dependent origination can also be seen daily by one's own experience of being born into fresh activity (such as responding to this forum post), again and again, due to craving and ignorance.

The mere fact that you're asking this question shows that you lack confidence in the Buddha's teaching. Develop your confidence by meditating more and speculating less.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby KumarS » Fri May 23, 2014 1:09 pm

someguysomeguy wrote:The debate about rebirth is going on for a while.

While we cannot say rebirth is not a part of Buddhism since the entire basis of Buddhist philosophy is Samsara and breaking away from Samsara , there should be some conclusive evidence for it.

I dont like research by Ian stevenson etc because those are based on flimsy grounds (like evidence from children etc)...

If we go into the literature, Buddha says that Rebirth can be seen in the 4th Jhana . Has anyone in this forum seen rebirth or does anyone know of any Buddhist Monk to have seen rebirth?.


There are many accounts of past lives in Gina Cerminara` s book about Cayce.
I think the book is called "Many Mansions"

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri May 23, 2014 1:09 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Rebirth can be seen daily, whenever a new being comes into existence. That is evidence enough for someone who has the eye of faith to make the connection to death, which can also be seen daily. The flow of dependent origination can also be seen daily by one's own experience of being born into fresh activity (such as responding to this forum post), again and again, due to craving and ignorance.

The mere fact that you're asking this question shows that you lack confidence in the Buddha's teaching. Develop your confidence by meditating more and speculating less.


:clap: :goodpost: :clap:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri May 23, 2014 1:30 pm

Anytime there is ignorant contact with what is sensed there is ‘rebirth’.

Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa ‘asmi’ tipissa hoti; ‘ayamahamasmi’ tipissa hoti; ‘bhavissan’tipissa hoti; ‘na bhavissan’tipissa hoti…”

Born of ignorant contact, bhikkhus, the untaught-commoner is influenced by sensations. Thus it occurs to him ‘I am’; thus it occurs to him ‘I am this’; thus it occurs to him ‘I exist’; thus it occurs to him ‘I do not exist’…” – SN. 22.47 (Samanupassanā Sutta)
Anuvicca papañca nāmarūpaṃ
ajjhattaṃ bahiddhā ca rogamūlaṃ,
sabbarogamūlabandhanā pamutto
anuvidito tādi pavuccate tathattā
.

“Having known the naming of objects,
With its proliferation, its root in illness – within and without;
One is released from bondage to the root of all illness.
And thus is called the Knowing One – the Such.

– Sn. 3.6 (Sabhiyasuttaṃ)

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby 2pennyworth » Fri May 23, 2014 1:37 pm

There seems to be a lot of confusion about between the difference of reincarnation and rebirth.

Excerpt from MN 38:

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Sāvatthī, at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's park. Now on that occasion this pernicious viewpoint (diṭṭhigata) had arisen in the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son: "As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on [from birth to birth], not another." A large number of monks heard, "They say that this pernicious viewpoint has arisen in the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son: 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on [from birth to birth], not another.'" So they went to the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son and on arrival said to him, "Is it true, friend Sāti, that this pernicious viewpoint has arisen in you — 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another'?"


"Exactly so, friends. I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One such that it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another."

Then those monks, desiring to pry the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son away from that pernicious viewpoint, quizzed him back & forth and rebuked him, saying, "Don't say that, friend Sāti. Don't slander the Blessed One, for it is not good to slander the Blessed One. The Blessed One would not say anything like that. In many ways, friend, the Blessed One has said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness.'" And yet even though he was quizzed back & forth and rebuked by those monks, the monk Sāti the Fisherman's Son, through stubbornness and attachment to that very same pernicious viewpoint, continued to insist, "Exactly so, friends. I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One such that it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another."


Full sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Matt :smile:
“We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away.” ~ Chuang Tzu

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri May 23, 2014 1:44 pm

You are right; The only Buddhist tradition, AFAIK, that truly prescribes to Reincarnation in its literal sense, is Tibetan Buddhism; the most prominent and/or famous example of this process, being His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who is the 14th in his lineage....

Re-birth is 'reserved for Hoi Poloi; the rabble.

Us, in other words.... :tongue:

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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby piotr » Fri May 23, 2014 1:50 pm

Hi,

    Just as if on being asked about a mango he were to describe a breadfruit-tree to me, or on being asked about breadfruit-tree to me he were to describe a mango.

    — Sāmaññaphala-sutta (DN 2), trans. by Maurice Walshe

It's a shame but most of the answers are not to the point and one I find even offensive.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri May 23, 2014 1:58 pm

Well if it is I who has offended, albeit unwittingly and unintentionally, I apologise.

I would not offend sensibilities in such a way.
Forgive whatever ignorance you might perceive.

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby piotr » Fri May 23, 2014 2:02 pm

Hi,

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Well if it is I who has offended, albeit unwittingly and unintentionally, I apologise.


It's not you. I find it offensive when someone asks legitimate question and instead of proper answer he/she receives preaching about his lack of confidence.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby Lazy_eye » Fri May 23, 2014 2:07 pm

someguysomeguy wrote:The debate about rebirth is going on for a while.

While we cannot say rebirth is not a part of Buddhism since the entire basis of Buddhist philosophy is Samsara and breaking away from Samsara , there should be some conclusive evidence for it.

I dont like research by Ian stevenson etc because those are based on flimsy grounds (like evidence from children etc)...


It would be nice if there were some conclusive evidence, but I'm not surprised that there isn't. Rebirth is inherently hard to test -- how could it be done, really? Maybe some large-scale study carried out over generations and across multiple geographical regions, but who has the resources to conduct such a study?

Keep in mind also that most people are not reborn into the human realm after death; in fact, it can take many eons before one takes human form again. From the Chiggala Sutta:

"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state.


So a scientific test would have to be capable of finding that turtle.

If you're interested in resolving for yourself whether rebirth is plausible, it may be more fruitful to look at the nature of consciousness. If consciousness has a material cause, then rebirth is impossible; if it does not have a material cause, rebirth is not only possible but likely.

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby 2pennyworth » Fri May 23, 2014 2:37 pm

piotr wrote:... I find it offensive when someone asks legitimate question and instead of proper answer he/she receives preaching about his lack of confidence.


My attempt to defuse the tension here with a touch of humor :

I find your lack of faith disturbing Darth Vader:



We're all stuck in this round of samsara together. :group:

Matt :-)
Last edited by 2pennyworth on Fri May 23, 2014 3:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri May 23, 2014 2:51 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:.....
Keep in mind also that most people are not reborn into the human realm after death; in fact, it can take many eons before one takes human form again. From the Chiggala Sutta:

"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state.


So a scientific test would have to be capable of finding that turtle.

If you're interested in resolving for yourself whether rebirth is plausible, it may be more fruitful to look at the nature of consciousness. If consciousness has a material cause, then rebirth is impossible; if it does not have a material cause, rebirth is not only possible but likely.


However, the same sutta goes on to say:

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"


I take this to mean: You are fortunate to find yourselves reborn into the Human realm.

You are doubly fortunate to find yourselves reborn in this realm as I occupy it.

you are triply fortunate to find yourselves reborn into this realm, where my Dhamma is being expounded.

Therefore, concentrate on what is Important: The 4 Noble Truths.
Focus on that, for only this way, lies liberation from ceaseless Samsara and re-birth.

:namaste:
Last edited by TheNoBSBuddhist on Fri May 23, 2014 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby 2pennyworth » Fri May 23, 2014 3:17 pm

I think it might be worth also pointing out that in terms of mind moments, rebirth into one of the six realms of existence refers to mind states, like being driven by desire and want for more, or necessity , or suffering in hell realm due to past regtetful actions, for example. The optimum realms for attaining nibbana are the "human" and "deva realms", I believe.
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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby beeblebrox » Fri May 23, 2014 4:01 pm

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:
"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"


I take this to mean: You are fortunate to find yourselves reborn into the Human realm.

You are doubly fortunate to find yourselves reborn in this realm as I occupy it.

you are triply fortunate to find yourselves reborn into this realm, where my Dhamma is being expounded.

Therefore, concentrate on what is Important: The 4 Noble Truths.
Focus on that, for only this way, lies liberation from ceaseless Samsara and re-birth.


Hi NoBSBuddhist,

I think it is significant that the Buddha didn't use personal pronoun in what was quoted.

In any case, I think rebirth is one of the keys in understanding the Buddha's teachings... so it is a part of practice (for each person) to try parse that into something which is useful for liberation.

:anjali:

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri May 23, 2014 4:33 pm

I realise he didn't use the personal pronoun, which is why I wrote "I take this to mean"... and not, "What the He/the Buddha meant was...."

Thank you for noticing.... :sage:

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Re: Anyone who has seen rebirth ?.

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri May 23, 2014 4:55 pm

Basically short of true enlightenment, 99.99% of us are going to be reborn or reincarnated, if you believe rebirth is nothing and not real then thats what you have to look forward to, nothing.......
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John


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