Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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khlawng
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by khlawng »

It seems to me that there is a general perception that jhana states are binary.
Perhaps a better way to look at it is that there are depth and qualities to jhanas.
jameswang
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by jameswang »

Sylvester wrote:No need to wonder why and mount a critique of the Comy. If you pay closer attention to the sutta, it says -
so ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūto caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tasmiṃ samaye caṅkamo hoti
It does NOT say -
so ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūtā caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tesu samayesu caṅkamo hoti
Sometimes, the simplest answer is found in whether the inflection is in the plural or singular. That passage describes (i) establishment of mindfulness, and (ii) 4 jhanas. Since the Pali is in the singular, which of these 2 would the walking passage refer to?
English, please?
jameswang
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by jameswang »

Looks Sylvester is not going to do it. Can anyone else translate?
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piotr
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by piotr »

Hi,
jameswang wrote:Looks Sylvester is not going to do it. Can anyone else translate?
The original text says:
  • So ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūto caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tasmiṃ samaye caṅkamo hoti
    When I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial.
And doesn't say:
  • So ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūtā caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tesu samayesu caṅkamo hoti
    When I am in such states, if I walk back and forth, on these occasions my walking back and forth is celestial.
Sylvester's argument is that based on the grammar one can inferre that the "walking passage" refers to the establishment of sati and not to the jhānas.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
jameswang
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by jameswang »

piotr wrote:Sylvester's argument is that based on the grammar one can inferre that the "walking passage" refers to the establishment of sati and not to the jhānas.
Oh.... Hmm.... But that doesn't proof OP wrong, does it?

Reading the sutta as it is, I get the idea that the jhanas are the result of establishing sati, and one progresses to higher jhanas through establishing of sati. So, greater jhanas are simply greater establishment of sati. How else can it be?
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piotr
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by piotr »

Hi,
jameswang wrote:
piotr wrote:Sylvester's argument is that based on the grammar one can inferre that the "walking passage" refers to the establishment of sati and not to the jhānas.
Oh.... Hmm.... But that doesn't proof OP wrong, does it?

Reading the sutta as it is, I get the idea that the jhanas are the result of establishing sati, and one progresses to higher jhanas through establishing of sati. So, greater jhanas are simply greater establishment of sati. How else can it be?
I'm not even sure if the "argument from grammar" is conclusive. If you read whole sutta you can conclude that it's not the establishment of sati that makes Buddha's walking, standing, sitting or laying down divine or noble, but states which proceed after the establishment of sati, namely: jhānas, brahmavihāras and retrospective knowledge of attainment of arahantship.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
LXNDR
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by LXNDR »

i believe it's worth attaining the 4th jhana and experiencing it firsthand to have all questions cast off
vesak2014
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by vesak2014 »

jameswang wrote:
piotr wrote:Sylvester's argument is that based on the grammar one can inferre that the "walking passage" refers to the establishment of sati and not to the jhānas.
Oh.... Hmm.... But that doesn't proof OP wrong, does it?
OP was wrong to use Venānga Sutta to proof that jhana is not absorption method.
The Buddha can enter jhana at will without any difficulty, independent of his actual posture. The walking (or standing, or laying , or sitting) happened prior to entering jhana state. The walking is "celestial" when he enters jhana while in walking position, not the other way around, entering jhana then trying to walk.

If jhana is absorption in an object, then nothing else one can do other than being absorbed in that object. There will be no insight whatsoever.

To enter 1st jhana, use calming-down (samatha) to make sensuality ceased. Use insight to discern the cause of sensuality, the allure of sensuality, the escape from sensuality. To enter 2nd jhana, transcend from 1st jhana, discern how to make vitakka-vicara ceased, and so on.

:anjali:
LXNDR
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by LXNDR »

vesak2014 wrote: To enter 1st jhana, use calming-down (samatha) to make sensuality ceased. Use insight to discern the cause of sensuality, the allure of sensuality, the escape from sensuality. To enter 2nd jhana, transcend from 1st jhana, discern how to make vitakka-vicara ceased, and so on.

:anjali:
sir, do you suggest that based on your own experience of jhanas?
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by Sylvester »

piotr wrote:Hi,
jameswang wrote:
piotr wrote:Sylvester's argument is that based on the grammar one can inferre that the "walking passage" refers to the establishment of sati and not to the jhānas.
Oh.... Hmm.... But that doesn't proof OP wrong, does it?

Reading the sutta as it is, I get the idea that the jhanas are the result of establishing sati, and one progresses to higher jhanas through establishing of sati. So, greater jhanas are simply greater establishment of sati. How else can it be?
I'm not even sure if the "argument from grammar" is conclusive. If you read whole sutta you can conclude that it's not the establishment of sati that makes Buddha's walking, standing, sitting or laying down divine or noble, but states which proceed after the establishment of sati, namely: jhānas, brahmavihāras and retrospective knowledge of attainment of arahantship.

Hi piotr

I'm in agreement that the sg/pl distinction is probably not going to be very helpful. I think it's probably more fruitful to nit-pick on another grammatical point, namely the underlined word -
So ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūto caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tasmiṃ samaye caṅkamo hoti. So ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūto tiṭṭhāmi, dibbaṃ me etaṃ tasmiṃ samaye ṭhānaṃ hoti. So ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūto nisīdāmi, dibbaṃ me etaṃ tasmiṃ samaye āsanaṃ hoti. So ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūto seyyaṃ kappemi, dibbaṃ me etaṃ tasmiṃ samaye uccāsayanamahāsayanaṃ hoti. Idaṃ kho, brāhmaṇa, dibbaṃ uccāsayanamahāsayanaṃ, yassāhaṃ etarahi nikāmalābhī akicchalābhī akasiralābhī’’ti.

Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.

AN 3.63 trans BB
I'm not sure why BB translates evaṃbhūto as "when I am in such a state", since the present participle is not used; bhūta is the past participle of bhavati. You can see this sense of the present perfect (see Warder p.40) being brought out very nicely in the older PTS translation -
Now, brahmin, when I have reached such a state, if I walk up and down...
Warder goes on to discuss what happens when the past participle is inflected in the nominative (such as our case here bhūto) -
The past participle may be equivalent to a (normally passive) finite verb in the past tense. It then
appears in the nominative case and agrees in number and gender with the agent (if active) or the patient (if passive).
Evaṃbhūto appears very rarely in the Canon - elsewhere, AN 4.11, AN 4.12 and It 110 & 111 (both parallels to AN 4.11 and AN 4.12 respectively). Let's see how AN 4.11's evaṃbhūto comes to be translated by BB verse Woodward -
Carato cepi, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno abhijjhābyāpādo vigato hoti, thinamiddhaṃ… uddhaccakukkuccaṃ… vicikicchā pahīnā hoti, āraddhaṃ hoti vīriyaṃ asallīnaṃ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ, carampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṃbhūto ‘ātāpī ottāpī satataṃ samitaṃ āraddhavīriyo pahitatto’ti vuccati.
Bhikkhus, if a sensual thought, a thought of ill will, or a thought of harming arises in a bhikkhu while walking, and he tolerates it, does not abandon it, dispel it, terminate it, and obliterate it, then that bhikkhu is said to be devoid of ardor and moral dread; he is constantly and continuously lazy and lacking in energy while walking
.

trans BB
Monks, if while he walks there arise in a monk thoughts
sensual or malign or cruel, and that monk admits them,
does not reject and expel them, does not make an end of them,
does not drive them out of renewed existence, a monk who while
walking becomes thus is called “ void of zeal and unscrupulous,
always and for ever sluggish and poor in energy."

trans Woodward
What Warder seems to be suggesting is that the precise demarcation of time is left very vague by the aorist (here, implied by the nominative of bhūta) and he (p.26) suggests that if more accurate demarcations of time are required, periphrastic constructions of the main verb and participles are used. I don't see the past participle bhūta being listed by Warder as participating as an auxillary verb, although hoti and bhavissati are discussed.

So, is BB's translation "when I am in such a state" guided more by the Comy opinion, and less by the grammar?

:anjali:
pulga
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by pulga »

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:
What Warder seems to be suggesting is that the precise demarcation of time is left very vague by the aorist (here, implied by the nominative of bhūta) and he (p.26) suggests that if more accurate demarcations of time are required, periphrastic constructions of the main verb and participles are used. I don't see the past participle bhūta being listed by Warder as participating as an auxillary verb, although hoti and bhavissati are discussed.

So, is BB's translation "when I am in such a state" guided more by the Comy opinion, and less by the grammar?
Warder does say that "tuṇhībhūto nisinno hoti" may be regarded as a double periphrastic (p.239). Since like ni-sīd, (k)kam is durative might Ven. Bodhi be treating "evaṃbhūto caṅkamāmi" periphrastically?
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
Sylvester
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by Sylvester »

Thanks pulga!

Yes, the durative aspect comes through clearly in Warder for the 2 verbs caṅkamāmi (walk) and nisīdāmi (sit). Presumably, this also holds true for the other 2 verbs?

Although evaṃbhūta can function adverbally, the CPD assigns to it a nominal function as an adjective (having become such). That would fit it better with the usage of evaṃbhūta in AN 4.11 and AN 4.12.

So, we have evaṃbhūta showing shades of being both adverbal (if it enters into periphrasis with the posture verbs in AN 3.63) as well as nominal (in AN 4.11 & 4.12). Dilemma, dilemma.

Incidentally, I'm told that the Thai translation treats evaṃbhūta nominally in AN 3.63.

:anjali:
jameswang
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by jameswang »

piotr wrote:I'm not even sure if the "argument from grammar" is conclusive. If you read whole sutta you can conclude that it's not the establishment of sati that makes Buddha's walking, standing, sitting or laying down divine or noble, but states which proceed after the establishment of sati, namely: jhānas, brahmavihāras and retrospective knowledge of attainment of arahantship.
At any rate, our friend will intimidate us with his Pali prowess. Sounding clever doesn't mean he's right. It's a put off.
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by pulga »

jameswang wrote:At any rate, our friend will intimidate us with his Pali prowess. Sounding clever doesn't mean he's right. It's a put off.
Posts that impel one to think are always worthwhile. I consider our friend a true asset to the forum.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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SDC
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Re: Venānga Sutta - jhana not absorbtion method

Post by SDC »

pulga wrote:
jameswang wrote:At any rate, our friend will intimidate us with his Pali prowess. Sounding clever doesn't mean he's right. It's a put off.
Posts that impel one to think are always worthwhile. I consider our friend a true asset to the forum.
As do I. Wish he posted more often.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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