I say, culaavuso, what a notable and worthwhile comment you make!
"Performative utterance"...!
That's worth filing in my 'miscellaneous' mental file, and holding onto for future reference....
How very clever!
Thank you for that!
Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
- TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.
Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
Excellent!culaavuso wrote:The statement "three sevens" in this case seems to be a performative utterance rather than a statement of truth describing the world. Another way to interpret this is that in the context of the rules, the expanded statement is not "these cards are three sevens", but rather "I promise to pick up all the cards in the middle if challenged and these cards are not three sevens". This latter statement is not untrue and does not deceive the other players.Coyote wrote:I don't doubt that this is somewhat a trivial offence, there are much worse lies. But "white lies" would also break the fourth precept, at least if we adhere to the traditional definition, which as I understand it has these factors:
1) You must know that what is being said is untrue, false speech
2) you must say it
3) others must hear and understand the lie
Saying "three sevens" when these are not the cards that are being put down would fulfill these factors.
I also think the line becomes less clear when there is no "false speech" involved, although it may still be akusala. I don't know how poker works so I am unsure if this would break the precept.
Kim
Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
I think it's a question of ego-involvement and of motivation. I play a competitive sport for exercise and fun (in that order) and I have reached a point at which I genuinely enjoy a good competitive game which I lose more than I enjoy an easy game which I win, and I am genuinely as happy (or very nearly ) for my opponent's victories as for any of my own.Mkoll wrote:I have similar experience and I totally agree.waterchan wrote:Any kind of game involving direct competition with opponents provokes defilement. I used to play a lot of competitive online multiplayer games. Not conducive to inner peace by any meansMkoll wrote:Not playing games specifically listed as part of the higher virtue in the Brahmajala Sutta (DN 1).
Having played and watched a lot of poker in the past, I'd say that playing it provokes defilement.
It can be done!
But some games are less conducive to it than others. Playing in a team with people whose motivations are poor would make it difficult to play the way I prefer to play. Likewise playing a game or sport which deliberately inflicts pain, e.g. boxing or wrestling, or any game played for significant amounts of money - which inflicts a different kind of pain, I guess.
Kim
Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
Playing games as a family is great - nice for bonding and much better than slumping down in front of the TV.
If you don't like playing the current family favourite - why don't you just go an buy a new one or introduce a new game using the same cards. UNO, Rommee or whatever - there are many that are about luck, speed or skill.
If you don't like playing the current family favourite - why don't you just go an buy a new one or introduce a new game using the same cards. UNO, Rommee or whatever - there are many that are about luck, speed or skill.
- TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
Most card games require concealment and subterfuge. Is this lying by omission....?
You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.
Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
Well, I'm more in the don't overthink camp… there are plenty of great board or card games around that are not built around the concept of cheating and more and more board games also requiring collaboration rather than competition.TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Most card games require concealment and subterfuge. Is this lying by omission....?
- TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
Oh I agree. If you read the thread (I'm sure you have seen comments hitherto) I am of the same opinion.
I'm merely pointing out to the OP that such games all require some kind of strategy which puts 'you' at an advantage, and everyone else at a disadvantage.
We can take this to the Nth degree.
I just wanted to see how far - as a layperson not bound by the strictures and rigidity of ordination - the OP wants to go with this....
I'm merely pointing out to the OP that such games all require some kind of strategy which puts 'you' at an advantage, and everyone else at a disadvantage.
We can take this to the Nth degree.
I just wanted to see how far - as a layperson not bound by the strictures and rigidity of ordination - the OP wants to go with this....
You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.
Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
- TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
Incidentally, did you know that 'Snakes and Ladders' originated as a Hindu game to teach children the consequences of right and Wrong ...."Everything"...?
It was a game the origins of which lie in Sound Morality and Virtue.
It was a game the origins of which lie in Sound Morality and Virtue.
You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.
Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
"But Daddy, all I did was throw this dice and the snake got me, but Arjun did the same and got a ladder! I think I prefer the teachings of the Buddha to all this aleatory nonsense..."TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Incidentally, did you know that 'Snakes and Ladders' originated as a Hindu game to teach children the consequences of right and Wrong ...."Everything"...?
It was a game the origins of which lie in Sound Morality and Virtue.
Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
You're missing the point. The precepts aren't in place to attain some sort of spiritual one upmanship the point of the precepts is to cultivate peace of mind for oneself. We avoid lying of any kind not because of the effect it has on other people but because of the effect it has on OUR mind. it plants the seed of greed and delusion in our mind in one way way or another no matter how insignificant the lie.TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:You are SOOO over-thinking this.
It's - a - game! That's ALL!
You're all doing the same thing, for fun, as a pastime, just for entertainment, camaraderie, bonding, enjoyment....it's not something that will put your head on a block and sentence you to death, or worse!
It's just some temporary fun!
If it bothers you that much - don't play it!!
Simple, and sorted!
If you don't want to lie, don't play!
How difficult do you want to make this for yourself?
And more pertinently - why?
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
- TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
No, I didn't miss the point, i don't think. From my own personal standpoint, I believe the OP was being too rigid in his caution.
But of course, that would be his stand. And my comments were only opinion, which of course he and anyone/everyone is welcome to ignore, or challenge....
But I did get it.
I understand the dilemma.
I just think that as a layperson, he should not punish himself so severely.
If indeed, that's what he's doing, which is what it seems like to me.
But of course, that would be his stand. And my comments were only opinion, which of course he and anyone/everyone is welcome to ignore, or challenge....
But I did get it.
I understand the dilemma.
I just think that as a layperson, he should not punish himself so severely.
If indeed, that's what he's doing, which is what it seems like to me.
You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.
Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
I too don't think he should be able to play such a game as a layperson, he should just always have it in the back of his mind that this can be and is counter intuitive to the meditation. Meditation is to stay focused on the present moment and really entertainment aims to make the mind restless and build a sort of dependence on said entertainment, to varying degrees.
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
I too don't think he should be able to play such a game as a layperson, he should just always have it in the back of his mind that this can be and is counter intuitive to the meditation. Meditation is to stay focused on the present moment and really entertainment aims to make the mind restless and build a sort of dependence on said entertainment, to varying degrees.
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
Re: Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?
One of my favorite Dhp quotes.Dhammapada 63 wrote:A fool with a sense of his foolishness is — at least to that extent — wise. But a fool who thinks himself wise really deserves to be called a fool.
-Thanissaro
~~~
A fool who knows his foolishness is wise at least to that extent, but a fool who thinks himself wise is a fool indeed.
-Buddharakkhita
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa