Lust

[Coyote]

ihrjordan,

If you are focusing exclusively on mindfulness or vipassana meditation you might find it helpful to try samatha meditation as well, as I find this tends to have a cooling effect on defilement like lust and anger, especially if done habitually.

I like this approach, although there are others available:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html

[ihrjordan]

Yes I have 3 and I think I know where this is going. I don't want you to get the wrong idea I treat women very well I'm very respectful and nice. It's just the lust driving me crazy. I work in retail right now so I'm around women like 90% of the time and on the outside I try to be the nicest I can be to women but on the inside I feel like I'm being torched by a fire

fgs man get yourself a girlfriend! This 'being touched by a fire' feeling is normal and healthy for a young guy, and as you are not a monk or about to become one, just face reality: you don't sound ready for celibacy, to me. In fact you might do yourself emotional damage if you artificially try to repress such a strong urge at this time, and impose celibacy on yourself when it is clearly the wrong time for it. Just find someone that you do like talking to, spending time with, meditating with etc. 'A nice Buddhist girl' as was said earlier, if that helps.

When using the mahasi method you do SEE it arise a lot more and it can become overwhelming. Poke fun all you want, I know what I'm experiencing.

[manas]

When using the mahasi method you do SEE it arise a lot more and it can become overwhelming. Poke fun all you want, I know what I'm experiencing.

Hi jordan,

I promise you, I was not poking fun at your post/s, and I'm sorry you interpreted my last post in that way. Maybe it's not you as such that aroused my momentary frustration, but just the endless tirade of folks coming here trying to 'eradicate' or otherwise go to war with a perfectly natural and healthy desire that, especially in younger folks, ought to be explored in most cases, unless one is already quite spiritually advanced (from lifetimes of previous work, perhaps). But for most of us, trying to 'cope' with lust by fighting and suppressing it does, in most cases, more harm than if folks just learned a bit of self-acceptance, were more humble about where they were at in their spiritual journey, and just opted for moderation in sex instead, as well as making sex about more than just physical pleasure - ie, by having an actual relationship. Anyway, I've said all I can, I wish you well and I'm sorry if I caused offense - I didn't mean to.
'
'kind regards
manas

[rgb1]

The most important thing is our reaction ihrjordan. The initial lust arises and ceases quicky, but then there is all the thinking about and identifying with the lust, the physical reactions resulting from the lust and the disliking of the reactions, wanting them to go away. It is important to be aware of all these things. The more you become aware of them, their hold over you becomes less and less.

[Mkoll]

The most important thing is our reaction ihrjordan. The initial lust arises and ceases quicky, but then there is all the thinking about and identifying with the lust, the physical reactions resulting from the lust and the disliking of the reactions, wanting them to go away. It is important to be aware of all these things. The more you become aware of them, their hold over you becomes less and less.

That is a good point. It's easy to slap a label on a series of events but doing so can lead to missing the finer details and progression of those events. This is seen in mundane life as well --- take global warming for example.

[mikenz66]

Hi ihrjordan,

From what I can gather, and what I have experienced, I think it's actually something reasonably common. Meditation commonly leads to a vitality and energy that can then become, umm..., directed in certain directions...

So don't feel you are some sort of lone pervert...

In a meditation context some very simple body part meditation can be useful. On the advice of one of my monastic teachers I've never bothered going further than "head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin", basically in a body-scan sort of way. I find I can use that as a grounding (primary) object to build concentration, instead of one of the other many possible objects, such as breath, touch, abdominal motion, metta, walking, or whatever. And it can dampen down lust quite effectively. I don't make any effort to be judgemental ("this skin is foul" or whatever), I just focus cyclicly on my head hair, body hair, etc...

You do seem a bit torn about the whole lust thing, and perhaps you're over analysing that, and your relationship attempts. But it's really hard to give useful advice on such a fraught subject through this medium. If you have real-life teachers, I'd encourage you to talk to one of them about it. You might be pleasently surprised how unsurprised they are by the question...


Mike

[Mkoll]

In a meditation context some very simple body part meditation can be useful. On the advice of one of my monastic teachers I've never bothered going further than "head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin", basically in a body-scan sort of way.

Yes, I've read this is an instruction that some Thai meditation instructors at monasteries give to beginners. It's also in the Visuddhimagga.

It's not a bad idea to memorize the 31 parts of the body. You can do this rather quickly by breaking them down into groups and visualizing them.

[mikenz66]

Yes, I guess I could memorise them, but I find the first five (which comprises the visible outer part of the body) to be quite adequate for my purposes, and I prefer to keep my meditation objects as simple as possible, so I don't wind up with too much thinking and inner conversation. I find that works best for me in building mindfulness and concentration.

An alternative is to use the U Ban Kin/Goenka style of scanning up and down the whole body, which is nicely non-conceptual once you get the hang of it.


Mike

[Spiny Norman]

I recall that another antidote to the hindrance of lust is developing jhana - I'll see if I can find the reference. I think the idea is to replace coarse pleasant feeling with "unworldy" pleasant feeling.

[santa100]

I recall that another antidote to the hindrance of lust is developing jhana - I'll see if I can find the reference. I think the idea is to replace coarse pleasant feeling with "unworldy" pleasant feeling.

Maybe these 2: MN 139:

Bhikkhus, these are the five strands of sense pleasures. Bhikkhus, if there arises any pleasantness and pleasure on account of these five strands of sense pleasures, it is called sense pleasure, vile pleasure of the not noble ordinary man. Bhikkhus, it should not be practised, should not be made much, I say it should be feared. Here, the bhikkhu secluded from sense desires and demerit, with thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion attains to the first jhaana. Overcoming thoughts and thought processes, the mind internally settled and brought to a single point and with joy and pleasantness born of concentration, attains to the second jhaana.....re.....attains to the third jhaana....re.....attains to the fourth jhaana. To this is said the non sensual pleasure, the pleasure of seclusion, appeasement and enlightenment. It should be practised, made much and should not be feared, I say. If it was said, knowing the evaluation of pleasantness, be yoked to internal pleasantness it was said on account of this.

and AN 5.176:

Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do not exist at that time: The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, these five possibilities do not exist at that time.

[ihrjordan]

[culaavuso]

And on that note does anybody know of a monastery somewhere on the east coast of the united states that's currently open for ordination?

It might be helpful to read about the experience of ordination at the Bhāvanā Society in West Virginia.

[pegembara]

Lust is not easily uprooted. One who has truly done so is likely to be a non-returner who has uprooted greed/desire in the 5 senses ie. rupa realm. I have always wondered why thoughts and fantasies are not included as the sixth.

There are five types of sense objects that overpower the mind of (most) human beings more than any others.

I do not know, bhikkhus, of a form that overpowers the mind of a man as much as, bhikkhus, the form of a woman.
I do not know, bhikkhus, of a sound that overpowers the mind of a man as much as, bhikkhus, the sound of a woman.
I do not know, bhikkhus, of an odor that overpowers the mind of a man as much as, bhikkhus, the odor of a woman.
I do not know, bhikkhus, of a taste that overpowers the mind of a man as much as, bhikkhus, the taste of a woman.
I do not know, bhikkhus, of a touch that overpowers the mind of a man as much as, bhikkhus, the touch of a woman.

http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 1-001.html

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

Lust is not easily uprooted. One who has truly done so is likely to be a non-returner who has uprooted greed/desire in the 5 senses ie. rupa realm. I have always wondered why thoughts and fantasies are not included as the sixth.

There are five types of sense objects that overpower the mind of (most) human beings more than any others.

I do not know, bhikkhus, of a form that overpowers the mind of a man as much as, bhikkhus, the form of a woman.
I do not know, bhikkhus, of a sound that overpowers the mind of a man as much as, bhikkhus, the sound of a woman.
I do not know, bhikkhus, of an odor that overpowers the mind of a man as much as, bhikkhus, the odor of a woman.
I do not know, bhikkhus, of a taste that overpowers the mind of a man as much as, bhikkhus, the taste of a woman.
I do not know, bhikkhus, of a touch that overpowers the mind of a man as much as, bhikkhus, the touch of a woman.

http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 1-001.html

If I may be so bold, it is an important distinction to point out that the Buddha here, is not holding women responsible for being as they are, and therefore causing the distractions to the monks: It is the monks, who, in lustful weakness, focus on the attraction of women, and the effect of their own clinging to lustful thoughts.

[santa100]

I have always wondered why thoughts and fantasies are not included as the sixth.

Maybe because abstract mind-objects like math concepts or philosophical ideas can obsess the mind purely thru the mind-door but in order for a particular woman/man (including thoughts/fantasies about her/him) to "obsess" the mind of another man/woman, at least one has to see their physical attributes first(form, smell, taste..). Obviously if their "form" isn't very desirable, then there's nothing to "obsess" the other's mind..