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The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God. - Page 10 - Dhamma Wheel

The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:21 pm


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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Dhammakid » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:40 pm

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mikenz66
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:52 am

Can someone transcribe Bhikku Bodhi's translation of that passage? I'm 20,000km from my copy...

Mike

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Jechbi
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Jechbi » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:08 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:46 pm


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Jechbi
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Jechbi » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:56 pm

As I read it, the importance of this passage is not that it discusses the existence or non-existence of God, but rather that it points to our own individual accountability for the dukkha that we experience. It's basically restating that I am the owner of my kamma. I think that if we try to use the passage as support for the atheist viewpoint, we're missing the point.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:13 pm


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Jechbi
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Jechbi » Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:21 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:04 pm


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Jechbi
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Jechbi » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:45 pm

No, Tilt, you're layering on stuff. It appears to me that you're trying to translate this in a manner that aligns with your own hopes and views.

With regard to your statement that kamma is our refuge, please tell me the context and what you mean. Because in general, I'd say no, kamma is not our refuge. "The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known." But before I go misunderstanding you again, I'd like to ask you what you mean exactly when you say kamma is our refuge. That's why I asked. Perhaps you mean it in a way that I am not understanding.

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby appicchato » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:46 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:30 pm


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imagemarie
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby imagemarie » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:35 pm

i'm sorry, but what then of "right effort"? That we are able to "(1)prevent unwholesome states of mind from arising,(2) to get rid of
unwholesome states that have already arisen, (3) to produce, to cause to arise, good and wholesome states of mind
not yet arisen, (4) to develop and bring to perfection the good and wholesome states of mind already present".

Is this "energetic will" ( Right Effort - Walpola Rahula), not kamma? And does it not provide a "refuge" then?

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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:38 pm


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:40 pm

Hi Tilt,

How can we take refuge in our kamma if we know that we are bound to samsara due to our ignorance? This is like circular thinking. Many of our actions and intentions arise due to ignorance, craving, greed, delusion, etc.

If this weren't the case, we would have already gone beyond. That includes going beyond kamma and vipāka.

How could proper refuge be anything outside of the triple gem? :?

Best,
Drolma


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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:00 pm


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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Jechbi » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:02 pm


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:16 pm

One could say this, and it's perfectly sound:

I take refuge in the Buddha's teachings on kamma.

:anjali:

Tilt, I'm thinking over what you wrote. Will respond after having chewed on it...


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:21 pm




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