the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mkoll » Fri May 23, 2014 4:17 am

The 75-year-old's attorney, Julie Clark, is arguing that her client is only guilty of manslaughter because he comes from a place where wife beating is normal and didn't mean to kill her.

"He comes from a culture where he thinks this is appropriate conduct, where he can hit his wife," Clark said in Brooklyn Supreme Court. "He culturally believed he had the right to hit his wife and discipline his wife."


Oh, so I guess he had the right to kill his wife too, Ms. Lawyer?

Glad I don't have that job.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby cooran » Fri May 23, 2014 4:50 am

Back to topic please.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri May 23, 2014 5:03 am

:focus:

I was wondering how many religions have a requirement to observe a vegetarian diet.

Indian religions[edit]
Most Indian religions have philosophical schools that forbid consumption of meat and Jainism institutes an outright ban on the same. Consequently, India is home to more vegetarians than any other country. About 30% of India's 1.2 billion population practices lacto vegetarianism,[7] with overall meat consumption increasing.[8] The per capita meat consumption in India in 2002 was 5.2 kg, while it was 24 times more in the United States at 124.8 kg. Meat consumption in the United States and India grew at about 40% over the last 50 years. In 1961 Indian per capita meat consumption was 3.7 kg, while the US consumption was 89.2 kg. (1 kg = 2.205 lb)[9]


source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_and_religion

In the same WIKI I found the following very interesting, which seems to expose a contradiction between the Pali Canon and certain Mahayana Sutras:

Buddhist vegetarianism
The First Precept prohibits Buddhists from killing people or animals.[36] The matter of whether this forbids Buddhists from eating meat has long been a matter of debate.
The first Buddhist monks and nuns were forbidden from growing, storing, or cooking their own food; they relied entirely on the generosity of alms to feed themselves, and were not allowed to accept money to buy their own food.[37][38] They could not make special dietary requests, and had to accept whatever food almsgivers had available, including meat.[37] Monks and nuns of the Theravada school of Buddhism, which predominates in Sri Lanka, Thailand, Cambodia, Burma, and Laos, still follow these strictures today.
These strictures were relaxed in China, Korea, Japan, and other countries that follow Mahayana Buddhism, where monasteries were situated in remote mountain areas and the distance to the nearest towns made daily almsrounds impractical. There, Buddhist monks and nuns could cultivate their own crops, store their own harvests, cook their own meals, and accept money to buy anything else they needed in terms of food in the market.
According to the Vinaya Pitaka, when Devadatta urged him to make complete abstinence from meat compulsory, the Buddha refused, maintaining that "monks would have to accept whatever they found in their begging bowls, including meat, provided that they had not seen, had not heard, and had no reason to suspect that the animal had been killed so that the meat could be given to them".[39] There were prohibitions on specific kinds of meat: meat from humans, meat from royal animals such as elephants or horses, meat from dogs, and meat from dangerous animals like snakes, lions, tigers, panthers, bears and hyenas.[37]
On the other hand, certain Mahayana sutras strongly denounce the eating of meat. According to the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra, the Buddha revoked this permission to eat meat and warned of a dark age when false monks would claim that they were allowed meat.[38] In the Lankavatara Sutra, a disciple of the Buddha named Mahamati asks "[Y]ou teach a doctrine that is flavoured with compassion. It is the teaching of the perfect Buddhas. And yet we eat meat nonetheless; we have not put an end to it."[40] An entire chapter is devoted to the Buddha's response, wherein he lists a litany of spiritual, physical, mental, and emotional reasons why meat-eating should be abjured.[41] However, according to Suzuki (2004:211), this chapter on meat-eating is a "later addition to the text....It is quite likely that meat-eating was practiced more or less among the earlier Buddhists, which was made a subject of severe criticism by their opponents. The Buddhists at the time of the Laṅkāvatāra did not like it, hence this addition in which an apologetic tone is noticeable."[42] Phelps (2004:64–65) points to a passage in the Surangama Sutra which implies advocacy of "not just a vegetarian, but a vegan lifestyle"; however, numerous scholars over the centuries have concluded that the Śūraṅgama Sūtra is a forgery.[43][44] Moreover, in the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra, the same sutra which records his retraction of permission to eat meat, the Buddha explicitly identifies as "beautiful foods" honey, milk, and cream, all of which are eschewed by vegans.[38]
In the modern Buddhist world, attitudes toward vegetarianism vary by location. In China and Vietnam, monks typically eat no meat (and with other restrictions as well—see Buddhist cuisine). In Japan or Korea some schools do not eat meat, while most do. Theravadins in Sri Lanka and South-east Asia do not practice vegetarianism. All Buddhists however, including monks, are allowed to practice vegetarianism if they wish to do so. Phelps (2004:147) states that "There are no accurate statistics, but I would guess—and it is only a guess—that worldwide about half of all Buddhists are vegetarian".
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri May 23, 2014 5:30 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Vegetarian food can kill you, just ask this poor deceased woman!!

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2014/05/ ... =sec&or=tn


I just found it ironic that we keep hearing repeated on these forums how much more reasonable meat eaters are than vegetarians and vegans in particular, this article would argue otherwise!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri May 23, 2014 9:59 am

lyndon taylor wrote:I just found it ironic that we keep hearing repeated on these forums how much more reasonable meat eaters are than vegetarians and vegans in particular, this article would argue otherwise!!!


I guess nobody likes having their lifestyle choices challenged. ;)
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri May 23, 2014 8:52 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:
I guess nobody likes having their lifestyle choices challenged. ;)


Hi, Spiny. Maybe challenging is a problem for most folks, but many seem to prefer paying for their life-styles by "charging". At least that's what keeps Visa, Master-Card, and American Express in business. :broke:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:06 pm

Saw this during this morning's reading. It seemed right to me! :tongue:

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What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:30 pm

The dandelion has it coming.... I make an excellent salad using young dandelion leaves!
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby mahat » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:25 am

Our job is to break through to the Dhamma and escape the cycle of samsara, not become fettered with world views and become animal rights activists. Those who get it and don't waste time with opinions and views are the ones who understand.

Millions of animals/sentient beings are killed in farming to save crops from "pests" -- do vegetarians feel guilt about them?
Why should meat eaters feel guilty about animals being raised for actual food? The animal is fed, protected and in turn it provides us with meat. It's a relationship mankind has developed due to his losing his ability to digest plant food (see Aganna Sutta when plants started defending themselves from our greed by evolving husks) real vegetarian animals can digest cellulose, humans can't which is why it's fiber for us. So they're our friends and we should treat them with respect.

My own experience -- I follow the Jataka diet! Eat everything but without lust.

The Vinaya and Jatakas several times state that fish and meat have great medicinal value, and my experience with that is true.

I had psoriasis on my elbow, quail eggs cured that in a couple of weeks! (Batak Jataka -- since The Lord Was born as a quail I figured there would be great medicinal value in it)
Beef also helped me overpower an autistic teenager twice my size and weight who scares the heck out of his teachers due to his aggressive behavior -- he can literally bite your skin off.

So meat does give you the physical strength to fight of what can only be described as "demonic forces".
I was feeling tired and got excessively cold this winter, I ate beef and pork I had tremendous amount of energy and heat.

Buddha loved us all and as long as we do plenty of good deeds, and meditate everyday, he couldn't care less about what we ate as long as we are free of aversion, lust and greed... the Vinaya clearly states killing of an animal is a relatively minor offense compared to killing a human. The human birth can redeem everyone, so let's not waste it.

If vegetarians have aversion, they are not doing The Lord's teaching and are like unto Devdatta who never even became a stream enterer and will be trapped in this merciless world -- Buddha called this world the slaughter house.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:49 am

It seems you have all kinds of selfish compassion for yourself and your health, but no compassion for the poor animals being killed for your plate, let alone any compassion for those that choose not to kill any more animals than is absolutely necessary, which as Ron quoted above may be up to as much as 50% of Buddhists.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby mahat » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:10 am

lyndon taylor wrote:It seems you have all kinds of selfish compassion for yourself and your health, but no compassion for the poor animals being killed for your plate, let alone any compassion for those that choose not to kill any more animals than is absolutely necessary, which as Ron quoted above may be up to as much as 50% of Buddhists.


Wow, quite judgmental. Again, there is NO moral question for anyone who merely eats meat bought from a grocery store or a restaurant. Anyone who annoys a nonvegetarian in this regard is creating seriously bad Kamma for him/herself. Even Buddha stated this quite clearly in The Amagandha Sutta. Unfortunately it is typical of Devadutta's minions who never got far in The Dhamma. Devdatta died not being a stream enterer and going to Avici hell instead. He thought he was smarter than Buddha.

I have right view. I understand that ALL the food on my plate was brought by killing sentient beings, including the vegetables that caused millions of sentient beings to die through farming. You are blind to the sentient beings killed from farming, thus my compassion is all seeing, a vegetarian's is limited. I am thankful and through practicing the Dhamma help redeem all the sentient beings that sacrifice their life for being food.

Vegetarians don't even see that plants are sentient enough to evolve self protective mechanisms like husks to protect themselves from us over eating them. We literally have to thrash wheat and barley to get the grains out. Yet you call yourself compassionate.

The Vinaya states clearly, hurting plant life also requires confession. The human birth is the most precious especially one that practices the Dhamma.

I eat once a day, btw. Not that even that is a requirement on nonUposatha days for lay people.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:21 am

its people like you that give meat eaters a bad name, devadattu ended up becoming an arahant according to another poster, don't know if that's true, any way vegetarianism is a moral decision, just not part of your morality, if you want to accumulate your karma the way you want that's your business, I suggest you stay out of other people's business like mine.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby mahat » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:46 am

lyndon taylor wrote:its people like you that give meat eaters a bad name, devadattu ended up becoming an arahant according to another poster, don't know if that's true, any way vegetarianism is a moral decision, just not part of your morality, if you want to accumulate your karma the way you want that's your business, I suggest you stay out of other people's business like mine.


Devadutta went to Avici hell and will remain there for the entire kalpa according to Tipitika sources. I have a right to post my understanding of Dhamma as you have a right to post yours.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:52 am

Likewise for you if you go around supporting the idea that the buddha would approve of our factory farming of animals for consumption. Like I said you've completely missed the point of buddhism, compassion for all beings, not compassion for your stomach. You're in a morally indefensible position, and I don't think anything you say is going to get you out of it, especially claiming its bad karma to criticize meat eating. bad karma to save animals lives, bad karma to give animals a better life, yeah right, show me where the Buddha supports that nonsense......
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mkoll » Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:29 am

mahat wrote:Millions of animals/sentient beings are killed in farming to save crops from "pests" -- do vegetarians feel guilt about them?
Why should meat eaters feel guilty about animals being raised for actual food?
Whether you want to be guilty or not is your prerogative.

mahat wrote:It's a relationship mankind has developed due to his losing his ability to digest plant food (see Aganna Sutta when plants started defending themselves from our greed by evolving husks) real vegetarian animals can digest cellulose, humans can't which is why it's fiber for us.
Fiber is good for us. It helps prevent diseases and is part of a healthy diet. Meat has no fiber. So if all you eat is meat you will raise your risk of contracting many diseases.

mahat wrote:Beef also helped me overpower an autistic teenager twice my size and weight who scares the heck out of his teachers due to his aggressive behavior -- he can literally bite your skin off.
What did you do, hit him over the head with a T-bone steak? :lol:

mahat wrote:So meat does give you the physical strength to fight of what can only be described as "demonic forces".
:rofl:

mahat wrote:Buddha loved us all and as long as we do plenty of good deeds, and meditate everyday, he couldn't care less about what we ate as long as we are free of aversion, lust and greed... the Vinaya clearly states killing of an animal is a relatively minor offense compared to killing a human. The human birth can redeem everyone, so let's not waste it.
You're forgetting delusion. Freudian slip methinks.

mahat wrote:If vegetarians have aversion, they are not doing The Lord's teaching and are like unto Devdatta who never even became a stream enterer and will be trapped in this merciless world -- Buddha called this world the slaughter house.
How about if meat eaters have aversion? Would they be like Devadatta as well or are only vegetarians allowed that dubious honor?

~~~

Sheesh, I've read radical vegans online but this is the first radical meat eater I've ever encountered.
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James
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:00 am

what a pile of crock....

:goodpost: MKoll....

Jeesh, if this is what meat-eating does to your Mind, I'm very happy I became a vegetarian!

(I use to eat meat, now I don't. So like many others here, I have indulged in meat, and did so for quite some time, before deciing on removing it form my diet.

Never felt better.)

Frankly, I cannot be bothered to respond to your comments mahat.
I find them ludicrous, and to do so would be a waste of my time.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:31 am

Mckoll wrote:Sheesh, I've read radical vegans online but this is the first radical meat eater I've ever encountered.


Its not the first for me, unfortunately, which is why I decided it was probably best not to waste my time having discussions with them.


:pig:
Last edited by Aloka on Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mkoll » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:37 am

Aloka wrote:
Sheesh, I've read radical vegans online but this is the first radical meat eater I've ever encountered.


Its not the first for me, unfortunately, which is why I've decided to try not to waste my time by having discussions with them.


:pig:

What I find peculiar is that he thinks vegetarians will go to hell. I mean, that's just really out there.

:alien:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:53 am

Mkoll wrote:What I find peculiar is that he thinks vegetarians will go to hell. I mean, that's just really out there.

:alien:


There's an intriguing short article by Master Hsuan Hua: "The Horrors of Taking Lives and Eating Meat"

http://www.shabkar.org/download/pdf/The_Horror_of_Taking_Lifves_and_Eating_Meat.pdf

Excerpt:


"How strange! How very strange indeed!
The grandson marries the grandmother.
The daughter is eating her mother's flesh,
And the son is beating on a drum stretched with his father's skin.
Pigs and sheep are sitting on the couch,
And the six kinds of relatives are cooking in the pots.
People have come to offer congratulations,
But I see that it is truly suffering!"



:)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:22 am

I'm going to Tweet
"I don't eat meat,
Greens are my thing
from Fall to spring
in Winter-time
(to make things rhyme)
fewer shoots
more tubers, roots..."
If meat's your dish
I only wish
you like your meal
but really feel
I've made it clear
at least in here
that argument
is time ill-spent
and your opinion
holds no dominion.
All flesh is grass,
so up your artfully- prepared chicken cutlet and gravy.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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