Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby Mkoll » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:01 pm

Panegalli wrote:Ok, but reality is always reality, and if it is useful to take ayahuasca, i think it should be recommended.

Delusion is always delusion.

I've done an ayahuasca analogue once before, using different plants from traditional ayahuasca but containing the same chemicals needed for the experience, namely DMT and an MAOI. I perceived the presence of aliens and dinosaurs and there were times of intense hopelessness and intense ecstasy. Definitely the strongest drug I ever used and the most foul tasting liquid I've ever drunk. I can still bring up a gag reflex just remembering the taste in the back of my throat.

I could see how someone could delude themselves into believing something as grandiose as having achieved Nibbana after using the drug. But, it takes a certain kind of already susceptible personality to actually believe that about themselves. Certain Christians might believe they met Christ or are Christ, certain Hindus might believe they've met Krishna or Shiva or have become Krishna or Shiva, and certain Buddhists might believe they've achieved Nibbana. It's delusion conditioned by one's beliefs, that's all.

I wasn't Buddhist when I used it. I don't recommend it now.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby Panegalli » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:17 pm

walkart wrote:
Panegalli wrote:
Unshakeable faith in the buddha, the dhamma and the sangha.
No angry thoughts towards other beings.
No attachment to rites and rituals.
No view of self


Stream enterer have fruit of Dhamma eye, not fruit of Nibbana.

Is this person is you?



Yes
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:32 pm

So from your very first post, you intended some form of deceit by stipulating that the person experiencing this was someone you know - whereas, in fact, you were speaking about yourself?


No, someone who has Gone Beyond, an arahant, a person who has attained Nibbana, does not need to lie, obscure or use subterfuge.

You have not attained Nibbana.
In fact, I would say you are clinging to the hope that someone will agree with you, because it's what you'd like to think.

But frankly, an awakened person has no need to ask.
Hence my initial doubt, which you have just confirmed.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby seeker242 » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:43 pm

Panegalli wrote:I just want to raise the topic on ayahuasca, I know a person that has attained nibbana under its influence, maybe it would be a good discussion of on the 5th precept. What would you say about it?


I would say they didn't actually attain nibbana.

:anjali:
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby Panegalli » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:48 pm

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:So from your very first post, you intended some form of deceit by stipulating that the person experiencing this was someone you know - whereas, in fact, you were speaking about yourself?


No, someone who has Gone Beyond, an arahant, a person who has attained Nibbana, does not need to lie, obscure or use subterfuge.

You have not attained Nibbana.
In fact, I would say you are clinging to the hope that someone will agree with you, because it's what you'd like to think.

But frankly, an awakened person has no need to ask.
Hence my initial doubt, which you have just confirmed.


I'm sorry, I didn't intend to do that, I didn't feel I lied because I am a person I know.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby Panegalli » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:54 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Panegalli wrote:I just want to raise the topic on ayahuasca, I know a person that has attained nibbana under its influence, maybe it would be a good discussion of on the 5th precept. What would you say about it?


I would say they didn't actually attain nibbana.

:anjali:


perhaps you are right, but I did have a very useful experience.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:54 pm

It's called 'being economical with the truth' and it's not what you said necessarily; it was the intention behind it.
You were hesitant or reluctant to reveal this 'person you know' was you, in order to deflect criticism.

I repeat:
You have been nowhere 'near' Nibbana.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby Mkoll » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:58 pm

Panegalli wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
Panegalli wrote:I just want to raise the topic on ayahuasca, I know a person that has attained nibbana under its influence, maybe it would be a good discussion of on the 5th precept. What would you say about it?


I would say they didn't actually attain nibbana.

:anjali:


perhaps you are right, but I did have a very useful experience.


:thumbsup:

That's a better view to have than your OP.
Peace,
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:01 pm

You are the most splendid arbiter, Mkoll.... :sage:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby Panegalli » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:03 pm

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:It's called 'being economical with the truth' and it's not what you said necessarily; it was the intention behind it.
You were hesitant or reluctant to reveal this 'person you know' was you, in order to deflect criticism.

I repeat:
You have been nowhere 'near' Nibbana.


I didn't want to reveal that it was me because it would make people more resistant to my sugestion.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby m0rl0ck » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:11 pm

daverupa wrote:
Viscid wrote:I'm planning to do Ayahuasca this September...


Come for the sensory chaos, stay for the increased gastrointestinal motility?

:tongue:


:rofl:
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby culaavuso » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:12 pm

DN 16: Mahāparinibbāna Sutta wrote:In any doctrine & discipline where the noble eightfold path is not found, no contemplative of the first... second... third... fourth order [stream-winner, once-returner, non-returner, or arahant] is found.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby walkart » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:38 am

Panegalli wrote:
Yes


Thank you for your truthfull answer.
I dont know if you reached any fruit but i supposed to belief peoples and i hope that this experiance will alow you to develop your wholesome qualities and abandon unwholesome.

I dont know if it's possible now, but can you describe what you have experianced ?

:anjali:
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby seeker242 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:08 am

Panegalli wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
Panegalli wrote:I just want to raise the topic on ayahuasca, I know a person that has attained nibbana under its influence, maybe it would be a good discussion of on the 5th precept. What would you say about it?


I would say they didn't actually attain nibbana.

:anjali:


perhaps you are right, but I did have a very useful experience.


Perhaps you did! :smile: But that does not necessarily mean it was a good or wise thing to do. For example, if you put all your money on black at the roulette table, and the ball lands on black and you double your money, you could say that was a very useful experience, since you doubled your money! That is a very good outcome! But at the same time, just because you doubled your money does not mean it was good or wise to gamble with all the money to begin with. The end alone does not justify the means. The Buddha taught it's better to make sure the means are skillful and wise. Skillful means have no downside risk, unlike gambling which is inherently risky.

:anjali:
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby Crazy cloud » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:44 pm

Panegalli wrote:
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:How do they manifest this?
What leads either you or him to definitely ascertain it is Nibbana?


Unshakeable faith in the buddha, the dhamma and the sangha.
No angry thoughts towards other beings.
No attachment to rites and rituals.
No view of self


Hi, had the same four "fruits" my self, a couple of years ago - no drugs, just a big bite of good old dhukka deluxe :tongue: That state of mind lasted about 6 months, and surely it wasn't nibbana, sorry to say ;) But it made me glued to the eight fold path. Even had some abilities to read minds as well, and where seeing some strange sights, that I still don't understand

Actually I'm happy that the job isn't completly done, because it's kind of fun to strive in this path walking business - what to do when there's no more road ahead?! .. :juggling:
your name Mori means forest like the infinite fresh green distances of your blindness
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby Dan74 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:08 pm

I've seen reports of people after such psychodelic experiences whose orientation becomes much less to do with self and more with serving others and who afterwards commit to a spiritual path. This would be the best outcome.
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby walkart » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:17 pm

Crazy cloud wrote:and where seeing some strange sights, that I still don't understand


Hello Crazy Cloud,

What kind of sights? If it's possible to explain

:anjali:
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby Mkoll » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:53 pm

Crazy cloud wrote:Hi, had the same four "fruits" my self, a couple of years ago - no drugs, just a big bite of good old dhukka deluxe :tongue:

CC,

What do you mean by a "big bite of good old dhukka deluxe"?
Peace,
James
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby SamBodhi » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:18 am

I think that it is important to add to this discussion the idea that it is not necessary to take Ayahuasca.

With Metta,
SamBodhi
"An inward-staying
unentangled knowing,
All outward-going knowing
cast aside."
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Postby Crazy cloud » Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:09 am

Mkoll wrote:
Crazy cloud wrote:Hi, had the same four "fruits" my self, a couple of years ago - no drugs, just a big bite of good old dhukka deluxe :tongue:

CC,

What do you mean by a "big bite of good old dhukka deluxe"?


My own expression of the mood when realising that 50 years of trying to run away from my self, ended up in a simple aknowledgment: I'm in Hell, and there's no way out, I give up and refuse to move in any direction - and then a weeklong burning sensation in my whole body, which left me in a nice and clean emtiness

Best regards :)
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