Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

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SarathW
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Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by SarathW »

Why sadness included in Jhana factors?
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17: Jhāna-condition jhāna-paccaya is a name for the 7 so-called jhāna-factors, as these form a condition to the co-nascent mental and material phenomena, to wit: 1 thought-conception vitakka 2 discursive thinking vicāra 3 interest pīti 4 joy sukha 5 sadness domanassa 6 indifference upekkhā 7 concentration samādhi For definition s. Pāli terms.
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Mkoll
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by Mkoll »

Source?
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chownah
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by chownah »

I found this at the very end of the definition of jhana of Nyanatiloka's dictionary:

"Jhāna in its widest sense (e.g. as one of the 24 conditions; s. paccaya 17), denotes any, even momentary or weak absorption of mind, when directed on a single object."

Looks like jhana can be used for situations not really related to the type of concentration the Buddha taught....I guess.....don't know for sure......
chownah
SarathW
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by SarathW »

chownah wrote:I found this at the very end of the definition of jhana of Nyanatiloka's dictionary:

"Jhāna in its widest sense (e.g. as one of the 24 conditions; s. paccaya 17), denotes any, even momentary or weak absorption of mind, when directed on a single object."

Looks like jhana can be used for situations not really related to the type of concentration the Buddha taught....I guess.....don't know for sure......
chownah
Thanks.
The link is:

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... tm#paccaya
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pilgrim
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by pilgrim »

In the texts the word jhana has quite a general meaning. It simply means to meditate. The 4 jhanas, however have specific meanings.
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by StillABC »

From what I found out: samādhi in all has five factor as generally known (vitakka, vicāra, pīti, vedana, ekaggata). vedana represent in jhananga (jhana ang ka) are joy, sadness indifference. Thus in jhana-paccaya, it shows 7 factors instead of generally known 5 factors of jhana.

For more detail, please refer to Abhidhammattha Sangaha "a comprehensive manual of Abhidhamma", Bhikkhu Bodhi Chap 7 Samuccayasangaha, paragraphg 16 Jhana Factors and Guide to para. 16, p. 272
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by vesak2014 »

This thread is what happen when people rely on commentary and don't read the main suttas.
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by Virgo »

Jhana factors condition the cittas and cetasikas they accompany by way of Jhana-condition. Therefore I am assuming this only applies to micchaa-samadhi since domanasa (unpleasant feeling) only accompanies akusala citta.

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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by Zom »

Therefore I am assuming this only applies to micchaa-samadhi since domanasa (unpleasant feeling) only accompanies akusala citta.
SN 48.40 tells us that domanassa ends completely in 2nd jhana. And there Buddha speaks about right samadhi, not wrong one.
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by Spiny Norman »

SarathW wrote:Why sadness included in Jhana factors?
=======
17: Jhāna-condition jhāna-paccaya is a name for the 7 so-called jhāna-factors, as these form a condition to the co-nascent mental and material phenomena, to wit: 1 thought-conception vitakka 2 discursive thinking vicāra 3 interest pīti 4 joy sukha 5 sadness domanassa 6 indifference upekkhā 7 concentration samādhi For definition s. Pāli terms.
I wonder if domanassa here refers to unpleasant spiritual feeling, as described in the 2nd frame of the Satipatthana Sutta? This is described in MN137.13 as "grief based on renunciation" which arises dependent on " a longing for the supreme liberation".
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mikenz66
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by mikenz66 »

I'm surprised that people have not read the suttas that Zom suggests...
Zom wrote:
Therefore I am assuming this only applies to micchaa-samadhi since domanasa (unpleasant feeling) only accompanies akusala citta.
SN 48.40 tells us that domanassa ends completely in 2nd jhana. And there Buddha speaks about right samadhi, not wrong one.
The IVth chapter of the 48th Samyutta discusses this list.

SN 48.31
“Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. What five? The pleasure faculty, the pain faculty, the joy faculty, the displeasure faculty, the equanimity faculty. These are the five faculties.”
There is an analysis in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"And what is the distress-faculty? Any mental pain, mental discomfort born of intellect-contact to be experienced as pain & discomfort. That is called the distress-faculty.
As Zom says, in SN 48.40 there is this discussion:
“Here, bhikkhus, while a bhikkhu is dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, there arises in him the displeasure faculty. [214] He understands thus: ‘There has arisen in me this displeasure faculty. That has a basis, a source, a causal formation, a condition. It is impossible for that displeasure faculty to arise without a basis, without a source, without a causal formation, without a condition. ’ He understands the displeasure faculty; he understands the origin of the displeasure faculty; he understands the cessation of the displeasure faculty; and he understands where the arisen displeasure faculty ceases without remainder.

“And where does the arisen displeasure faculty cease without remainder? With the subsiding of thought and examination, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination, and has rapture and happiness born of concentration. And it is here that the arisen displeasure faculty ceases without remainder.
Bhikkhu Bodhi notes:
This seems difficult to square with the usual jhāna formula, which indicates that the first jhāna is already free from all unwholesome states, including domanassa. Spk: The faculty of displeasure is abandoned in the access to the second jhāna but arises again when there is bodily fatigue and mental strain on account of thought and examination. But in the second jhāna, which is devoid of thought and examination, it does not arise at all.
These factors are, therefore not some "commentarial addition". On the contrary, the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are attempting to make sense out of some apparently contradictory suttas.

:anjali:
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by Spiny Norman »

mikenz66 wrote: These factors are, therefore not some "commentarial addition". On the contrary, the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are attempting to make sense out of some apparently contradictory suttas.
Yes, there do seem to be some contradictory descriptions of what is present and absent in the first jhana.
For example here in AN5.28: "There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal."
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vesak2014
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by vesak2014 »

mikenz66 wrote: These factors are, therefore not some "commentarial addition". On the contrary, the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are attempting to make sense out of some apparently contradictory suttas.
"Commentarial addition" doesn't always mean addition. In this case it is "commentarial reduction" instead of "commentarial addition". The pali text of SN 48.40 says dukkhindriyaṃ, domanas­sindriyaṃ, sukhindriyaṃ, somanas­sindriyaṃ, upekkhindriyaṃ, while Nyanatiloka dictionary says only domanassa (and notice the noun "indriya" is gone.)

Saying suttas as contradictory only shows doubt, unfirm conviction, it won't help anyone.
Spiny Norman wrote:Yes, there do seem to be some contradictory descriptions of what is present and absent in the first jhana.
For example here in AN5.28: "There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal."
Most people don't read sutta carefully and don't consider what other suttas have to say. The alleged contradiction is their problem, not the suttas' problem.

"vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ", rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, here you disregard the adjective "born from withdrawal".
SN 48.37 Dutiya­vibhaṅ­ga­sutta
Katamañca, bhikkhave, sukhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ, kāyikaṃ sātaṃ, kāya­samphas­sa­jaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ– idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sukhindriyaṃ.

Katamañca, bhikkhave, dukkhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ dukkhaṃ, kāyikaṃ asātaṃ, kāya­samphas­sa­jaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ– idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhindriyaṃ.

Katamañca, bhikkhave, somanas­sindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, cetasikaṃ sukhaṃ, cetasikaṃ sātaṃ, mano­samphas­sa­jaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ– idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, somanas­sindriyaṃ.

Katamañca, bhikkhave, domanas­sindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, cetasikaṃ dukkhaṃ, cetasikaṃ asātaṃ, mano­samphas­sa­jaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ– idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, domanas­sindriyaṃ.

Katamañca, bhikkhave, upekkhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ vā cetasikaṃ vā nevasātaṃ nāsātaṃ vedayitaṃ– idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, upekkhindriyaṃ.
If you always remove adjective from every noun you read, yes they will be the same noun. If you generalize them such way then contradictions in many places as the result. "vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ" vs "kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ" for example. You generalized two different pali nouns. They both are "sukham" but of different types. Do you see your problem now?

If you examine closely, there are no contradictory suttas.

:anjali:
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mikenz66
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Re: Why sadness included in Jhana factors?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi vesak2014,

If you read my post carefully, I say "apparently contradictory suttas". Is has nothing to do with the doubt that you seem to be projecting. Like you, I was advocating carefully reading the suttas and not jumping to hasty conclusions. I would also advocate the same with the commentaries.

I'm sorry, but I am having trouble understanding this part of your post:
If you always remove adjective from every noun you read, yes they will be the same noun. If you generalize them such way then contradictions in many places as the result. "vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ" vs "kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ" for example. You generalized two different pali nouns. They both are "sukham" but of different types. Do you see your problem now?
I presume by "you" you don't mean me, since all I did was quote some suttas.

Could you please elaborate, and provide an English translation of the key terms? That would be very helpful.

:anjali:
Mike
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