Depression and Meditation

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Depression and Meditation

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

First of all, there are two important things to note at this juncture:

(1) I have no intention of criticising or contradicting either the respected Bhante, nor his teachings, posted in the thread. My intention is categorically not to cause dissent or argument.

(2) I have no psychiatric or psychological qualifications of any kind, and do not claim to be educated on the subject of mental afflictions at all.

In his thread "Dhamma Drops from Ceylon" , Our esteemed and respected contributor, Bhikku Samahita added his latest post, titled "The Higher Release" In which the following question is asked (accompanied by a link):

"How to cure depression?"

If one follows that link, one is led to a video, the title of which, is "Metta Meditation Cures depression."

My personal concern is as follows:
Should such a claim be made?

While I completely agree, and can attest to the fact that occasional and temporary stated of depression can certainly be dealt with in this way, is this a justifiable claim to make, for a person who has a chronic and prolonged condition, and is under medical supervision and care?

Certainly, Meditation is an amazing 'tool' and is extremely effective in assisting such an affliction, but can it actually CURE it?

I am genuinely asking, because it seems to me, that possibly, to the the impressionable and desperate sufferer of deep clinical depression, this lifeline may not be as immediately beneficial as they would hope...and if someone stops taking their medication, or alters and/or reduces the dosage (and it does happen, far more frequently than one might think!) would the Metta meditation be as effective, or be effective at all, in that circumstance?

A fellow member, (No_Mind) posted this interesting comment in this thread (I have only reproduced the pertinent point, here):
No_Mind wrote: ....So no it is not possible to be an urban monk except in short spells of a month. Maybe a rare person here and there can. But over long time such a reclusive life while living amidst few million people will cause mental problems unless the person had schizoid, loner tendencies to begin with and was in some way mentally abnormal.
If living like a Monk within an urban environment, may actually CAUSE a mental affliction,could this be a contradiction?

If one is living like a Monk, that would involve prolonged periods of Meditation - which if one is to take The Bhante's comments as true, would not cause an affliction, but prevent it?

I would be very interested in any thoughts or comments.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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cooran
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Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by cooran »

Hello NoBSBuddhist,

Please contact Bhikkhu Samahita directly and ask him these questions.

with metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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mikenz66
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Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi NoBSB,

Can you give us a summary of the video? It's hard for us to form any conclusions just from a title...

:anjali:
Mike
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

cooran wrote:Hello NoBSBuddhist,

Please contact Bhikkhu Samahita directly and ask him these questions.

with metta,
Chris
I'm not asking questions, I'm asking for opinions, and as there may be some mebers here who actually suffer from medically-treated Mental afflictions, I'd welcome their input.
mikenz66 wrote:Hi NoBSB,

Can you give us a summary of the video? It's hard for us to form any conclusions just from a title...

:anjali:
Mike
Thanks mike, I deliberately refrained from giving a synopsis for 2 reasons:
One, to encourage members to investigate the video for themselves, and two, my main "issue" is with the title itself. That Metta meditation Cures depression.

I'm hoping for input for those who have watched the video....

I would also add as an EDIT point, that I would rather people formed their own impression of his teaching, because any input from me, would be my opinion...

But he seems to be indicating that outside circumstances get to us, or that Depression is caused by Guilt/Remorse.

He mentioned 'biological' conditions as being a cause, but only in that manner (ie, citing it as one among many causes) but the fact that a medically-diagnosed condition may exist, was not a consideration.

I have an opinion on this, but I really want to refrain from comment until I can engage with those who have also watched it.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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mikenz66
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Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by mikenz66 »

OK, well I don't have time to watch a long video right now, but I do know that meditation has been studied as a treatment for depression. E.g.
http://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?q=m ... CEAQgQMwAA

There are literally thousands of websites that give advice on meditation and depression.

We have been concerned in the past about people giving specific advice to those with symptoms that should be referred to a suitable professional. In particular, posts to the effect of "don't pay attention to those who are telling you to seek advice". Our Terms of Service therefore contain: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2
4. Members who are suffering from mental illnesses.

Dhamma Wheel is for the exploration and discussion of the Dhamma. While the aim of the Dhamma is to provide a path to the end of suffering, members of Dhamma Wheel are not qualified to deal with acute episodes of mental illness of another, as expressed on a discussion forum. The Administrators and Moderators of Dhamma Wheel request your compliance with regards to the following guidelines which is designed for the benefit of all:

-- Members who are suffering a serious mental illness should seek diagnosis and treatment from a qualified medical professional within their community. Members who are suffering from an acute phase of a mental illness, including intention to self harm and/or suicidal should seek immediate assistance. http://www.befrienders.org/index.asp
-- Members who are experiencing an acute phase of mental illness or suicidal ideation welcome to seek referral to medical and crisis services from administrators and moderators.
-- Members are asked not to use Dhamma Wheel as a platform to express intentions of self harm or suicide, the experience of voices or other hallucinations or other artefacts of acute mental illness.
-- When encountering a member suffering an acute episode of a mental illness, we should treat that member with compassion and refer that member to medical/emergency services within that person's community and to Dhamma Wheel staff.
Note that what I have highlighted is addressed at specific advice to specific people. It does not forbid the discussion of the possible usefulness of meditation in various illnesses, or links to sites that discuss or advise on those issues. That would be impossible to police.

Here's a list of topics that talk about meditation and depression:
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=site% ... S:official

:anjali:
Mike
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Basically, in a nutshell. he goes through the wording of the Metta Meditation, and divides it into bite-sized morsels, and expands on each point. He describes the Meditation in detail, and the methodology and motivation behind it.

But even at two-thirds of the way through, no mention of how this Meditation could 'cure' the condition of depression was made.
he does point out it can take months, even a year perhaps and that it must be practised diligently and regularly....but I'm wondering how practical such advice can be.

Am I therefore speaking out of turn if I say that the advice therein seems to be at odds with the guidelines you have quoted?
I know that it is not deemed skilful to contradict or question the words and teachings of the ordained here. But I personally am concerned about such statements.
How does such a video comply with them...?
(The question may be treated rhetorically, if you feel it best. or feel free to edit my post....)

I am not trying to create an argument or voice dissent here.
But I'm concerned for those who may be subject to such influence....

Am I making any sense?!
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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mikenz66
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Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by mikenz66 »

The key point in the TOS is that if forbids specific advice in response to posts by someone suffering an acute illness that should be referred to a professional. A link to a website or video on a thread that is not answering such a question does not fall into that category.

Are you suggesting we trawl through all these threads:
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=site% ... S:official
and check out the advice in all of the links?

:anjali:
Mike
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Mkoll
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Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by Mkoll »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:I'm not asking questions, I'm asking for opinions, and as there may be some mebers here who actually suffer from medically-treated Mental afflictions, I'd welcome their input.
I took antidepressive medication as a teenager for a short while, but it was nothing really serious. I don't really see a problem here.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Goodness, no....!

My primary concern is whether the claim is accurate or inaccurate. Therein lies the question.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Mkoll wrote:
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:I'm not asking questions, I'm asking for opinions, and as there may be some mebers here who actually suffer from medically-treated Mental afflictions, I'd welcome their input.
I took antidepressive medication as a teenager for a short while, but it was nothing really serious. I don't really see a problem here.
Well, I'm not sure whether you've managed to sit through the video (I have! but it wasn't all that easy!*) and I'm really also seeking input from those who are currently experiencing such states and are under a doctor....

I further confess, I have never taken anti-depressive drugs, nor have ever felt the need, or been through the need to do so.



(*Bhikku Samahita has a strong accent, and occasionally, his words are lost behind his hand....)
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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waterchan
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Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by waterchan »

I think it's more accurate to say that by the time one can practice correct metta meditation, one is no longer chronically depressed. But I would be hesitant to prescribe it as a cure. "You have depression. Metta meditation will cure it."
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

waterchan wrote:I think it's more accurate to say that by the time one can practice correct metta meditation, one is no longer chronically depressed. But I would be hesitant to prescribe it as a cure. "You have depression. Metta meditation will cure it."
It is the claim, both in the title and in the video instruction...
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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mikenz66
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Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by mikenz66 »

And the clinical literature --- see the links above.

:anjali:
Mike
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Thank you Mike, for those links.
I will gladly peruse them and see what they say.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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