Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

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culaavuso
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by culaavuso »

AN 4.102: Valahaka Sutta wrote: There is the case where a person has mastered the Dhamma: dialogues... question & answer sessions. He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress.' ... 'This is the origination of stress.' ... 'This is the cessation of stress.' ... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is the type of person who both thunders and rains. This type of person, I tell you, is like the thunderhead that both thunders and rains.
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Mkoll
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by Mkoll »

I think what SDC is saying is true in some cases. There are suttas where a commentary provides the contextual or background information that wasn't present in the sutta, especially verse suttas. Whether that information is factual or useful is for the reader to decide.
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vinasp
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

There is another aspect to the aggregates that we also need to take into consideration. Each set of aggregates is not just a 'person' or a 'being.'
They are 'a person and his world', and 'a being and its world.'

The five aggregates subject to clinging are 'a being' (an apparent self) and also 'sakkaya' which is all of the three realms except the pure abodes.

So the cessation of the five aggregates subject to clinging is also the cessation of the apparent self and the cessation of 'this world.'

This has been achieved by a non-returner, who is said to 'arise spontaneously' in 'another world' (one of the pure abodes). But this 'person and his world' also ceases in due course.

Now, the stream-winner is said to understand dependent origination and dependent cessation. He must, therefore, understand that the path that he is developing will bring about the cessation of 'this world.' That is, all twenty six planes of existence, (the five pure abodes excluded).

How can the stream-winner continue to have a literal understanding of these planes of existence for beings, while also knowing that they will cease?

Are the teachings saying that the three realms are just cultural conditioning, just habits of imagination?

Regards, Vincent.
chownah
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by chownah »

SDC wrote:
chownah wrote:SDC,
It sounds like you are saying that important or even perhaps crucial contextual elements have been consistently omitted in conveying the teachings....that we must guess what that context is. To me this seems like it would be a serious flaw in the transmission of the teachings....if that were the case.
chownah
It seems probable when it comes to certain concepts.

We don't have to guess, but we may have to do a little more work to see if an adjustment in context brings out more meaning in the pursuit freedom from suffering.

EDIT - added "in the pursuit of freedom from suffering"

EDIT #2 - It would also seem likely that any contextual omission was unintentional; more and more so as time went on. Early on there was likely no need for any contextual assistance, and later (up until the present) any context was lost and therefore not included.
If there was unintentional contextual omission......omission of context which was important and perhaps crucial to understanding the meaning of a Sutta.......then what other kinds of unintentional omissions might have occurred? It seems that you are arguing for an incompetent method for transmitting the Suttas!.....if it was transmitted incompetently then where does that leave us?
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mikenz66
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Vincent,
vinasp wrote: Mike said:-"Your whole discussion seems to be based on the assumption that we are "made of aggregates" in some sense."

This is what the teachings (sutta pitaka) say. A 'being' (sato) is the five aggregates subject to clinging. A 'person' Is the five aggregates. A fully enlightened one is neither a 'being' nor a 'person.'
I think you'd need to carefully examine the language to be able to argue that this is evidence for the "thingness" of the aggregates. Going back to the example I quoted, we would say that an apple is round, red, crisp, and sweet (or maybe sour...). That doesn't mean that the apple is "made of" roundness, redness, etc.

And, on full awakening, nothing is interpreted as a being or a person. That doesn't mean that form, feeling, etc, disappears. See: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 75#p291038
(Which I know some will disagree with, but that's OK, there are a variety of opinions on many of these topics...).
vinasp wrote: Mike said:-"A counter-question: do you think that the aggregates are like building blocks?"

Yes, when considered as things. The five aggregates arise first, when they are established then the five aggregates subject to clinging arise.
Is there a sutta that says that, or is that your interpretation?

:anjali:
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SDC
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by SDC »

chownah wrote:If there was unintentional contextual omission......omission of context which was important and perhaps crucial to understanding the meaning of a Sutta.......then what other kinds of unintentional omissions might have occurred? It seems that you are arguing for an incompetent method for transmitting the Suttas!.....if it was transmitted incompetently then where does that leave us?
chownah
It leaves us exactly where the Buddha said we would be in the years after his death - in possession of an ever crumbling exposition of the dhamma.

And I am most definitely not arguing for anything - I am only offering what seems to be a likely scenario based on my own experience, the experience of others and a admitted dash of speculation. People are welcome to do whatever they want with it, but the last thing they should do is trust that I am correct.

I apologize if it seems like I am flagrantly throwing ideas around, I'm not. I've been working with these ideas for some time. This is just where I am, and where I am continuing to go in my own understanding and I'm choosing to share it.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

vinasp wrote: I would try to avoid the word 'experience.' But if you insist on using it, then I would say that the aggregates are a fivefold classification of constructed experience.
It depends what you mean by "constructed", but isn't it the sankhara aggregate where the constructing goes on, as the name suggests? I say that because in the suttas the functions of consciousness, feeling and perception seem to be described as simple, basic activities, almost automatic. Though I can see there is a sort of feedback loop whereby mental constructions affect these basic functions.
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

vinasp wrote: 1. The suffering of the first truth is in the future.
2. The birth, decay and death are in the future.
3. The five aggregates of clinging are in the future.
4. These all represent the next life, understood in a LITERAL SENSE.
5. The second truth, the origination of suffering is understood in the present.
The examples given in descriptions of dukkha can all be applied to one's present life - though as per the OP question, the inclusion of birth is perhaps less obvious.

I still don't think you've provided clear sutta support for the idea that there are 2 sets of aggregates, one clinging and one non-clinging.
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vinasp
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by vinasp »

Hi culaavuso,

AN 4.102 - Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:

".....and he understands as it really is:'this is suffering', and .......
and 'this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering'....."

These are the earlier, simpler version of the truths. Since they say much less they are open to a wider range of interpretations.

Of course, the description of suffering in the first truth also fits present suffering but that cannot cease because it was caused by previous craving, about which nothing can now be done.

Only present craving can be ended, and this will end future suffering.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by vinasp »

Hi mike,

"Bhikkhus, the arising, continuation, production, and manifestation of form is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death. The arising of feeling .......
The arising of perception .........The arising of volitional formations .....The arising of consciousness ....
The cessation, subsiding, and passing away of form ...... of consciousness is the cessation of suffering, the subsiding of disease, the passing away of aging-and-death." [BB, TCDB, SN 22.30 - Arising.]

Please explain how you understand this sutta.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by vinasp »

Hi Spiny,

Spiny said:-"...but isn't it the sankhara aggregate where the constructing goes on, as the name suggests? ...."

That is an important issue. My understanding is that all aggregates are sankhara's.

This is stated by Walpola Rahula in his "What the Buddha taught" page 57:

"The term sankhara denotes the five aggregates, ...." (see note 2).

Also, since contact is in the fourth aggregate (sankhara's), then if that ceases then feeling, perception and volition must also cease.

But what is required is to demonstrate this from sutta citations, I will try to find something.

Regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by mikenz66 »

vinasp wrote:Hi mike,

"Bhikkhus, the arising, continuation, production, and manifestation of form is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death. The arising of feeling .......
The arising of perception .........The arising of volitional formations .....The arising of consciousness ....
The cessation, subsiding, and passing away of form ...... of consciousness is the cessation of suffering, the subsiding of disease, the passing away of aging-and-death." [BB, TCDB, SN 22.30 - Arising.]

Please explain how you understand this sutta.

Regards, Vincent.
I'm not sure I'm getting my point across very well. I'm not suggesting that various things and experience don't arise, I'm simply suggesting that the classification of them as aggregates is a classification, not an indication that the aggregates are "things".

:anjali:
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by vinasp »

Hi Mike,

So, for you, 'aggregates' just means a fivefold classification, not the things which are being classified?

So any talk of 'the cessation of the five aggregates' makes no sense?

Instead, I should speak of the permanent cessation of form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness.

Regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by mikenz66 »

Yes, there is cessation. Sometimes it is described in terms of aggregates, sometimes the sense bases. These are probably not the best examples, but they are what I can come up with quickly.
Without directly knowing and fully understanding the eye, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. Without directly knowing and fully understanding forms … eye-consciousness … eye-contact … and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition … without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering.
http://suttacentral.net/en/sn35.26
So long as I did not directly know as they really are the five aggregates subject to clinging in four phases, I did not claim to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with its devas, Mara, and Brahma, in this generation with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans. But when I directly knew all this as it really is, then I claimed to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with … its devas and humans.

“And how, bhikkhus, are there four phases? I directly knew form, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation. I directly knew feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation.
http://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.56
"And what are the six kinds of renunciation joy? The joy that arises when — experiencing the inconstancy of those very forms, their change, fading, & cessation — one sees with right discernment as it actually is that all forms, past or present, are inconstant, stressful, subject to change: That is called renunciation joy. (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Why is birth included in descriptions of dukkha?

Post by Spiny Norman »

vinasp wrote:This is stated by Walpola Rahula in his "What the Buddha taught" page 57:
"The term sankhara denotes the five aggregates, ...." (see note 2).
Also, since contact is in the fourth aggregate (sankhara's), then if that ceases then feeling, perception and volition must also cease.
It's tricky.

"Sankhara" has several levels of meaning in the suttas, and in the general sense refers to anything which is conditioned - as in "sabbe sankhara anicca". But sankhara as an aggregate is more specific.

In the suttas "contact" is described as the meeting of sense-organ, sense-object and sense-consciousness, which sounds like a basic function of mind.

It might be worth starting a separate thread to discuss what the sankhara aggregate represents, how it functions and how it relates to the other aggregates.
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