Depression and Meditation

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Feathers
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:14 pm

Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by Feathers »

I am at work so have not watched the video, but if I may chip in on the wider topic, and please forgive me if this post becomes a little rambling.

I have been diagnosed with, and receiving medical treatment (i.e. drugs) for depression since November 2007. There are better times, there are worse times, but it never entirely lifts. The roots of it go much further back than the diagnosis.

As soon as you get depression, you get bombarded with opinions. Therapy is best, meditation is best, drugs are best . . . you're lazy, you're a poor thing to be pitied, you're weak, you're strong . . . and the trouble is, a lot of this comes from 'experts' - a psychiatrist who is 100% medication-focused and a counsellor who is into meditation, simultaneously, is quite confusing!

My conclusion . . . or, well, my working theory, is this:

(i) Depression is a meaningless term. It is applied to everything from someone so ill they are in and out of hospital, to people who are going through a few bad months after a divorce, to people like me who are (apparently) permanently ill, but not in immediate danger of harming themselves. I personally believe there are as many forms of depression as there are people with depression, but even setting that aside, the category as it stands is way too broad.

(ii) Point (i) leads to bad treatment. The person going through a divorce could probably be helped by counselling and spared the multitude of problems that drugs can bring. The person in a severe crisis may actually be harmed by therapy (particularly now that the only form available on the NHS is CBT - if I get into my opinions on that, this post will become unreadable . . .)

(iii) How does this tie into meditation? I believe meditation can be helpful. I believe many aspects of spiritual practice can be helpful. They can also be hugely harmful. For me, my introduction to meditation was through a useless therapist, at a time when I could barely get out of bed, who was pushing me to modify my entire life, including building up fast to 1hrs meditation a day. I simply couldn't do it, I was too ill, and this added pressure made things even worse. Not only was the therapist pushing the wrong thing for me, she didn't seem to actually have much understanding of meditation - a brief read of wikipedia and some lurking on eSangha opened up a plethora of issues. I have a bad history with religion, so even if I had had the ability to meditate, to be simply thrown into it blindly was not helpful. This leads to point (iv) . . .

(iv) Meditation can take you inside yourself. Without proper guidance, it can be alarming. On the one hand, if it can be made as secular as possible so more people can benefit, that sounds good. On the other hand, doing that seems to be to strip away key aspects/ways of understanding and processing the experience. Moreover, even in a Buddhist framework, it may be misapplied. For example: I went through a very bad phase about a year and a half ago. Nights of really intrusive thoughts of suicide. One time I managed to sit with it, bring attention to the breath and the present moment, and calm myself. Another night I tried that again and it was terrifying. Fortunately I had the sense not to push it - I put on a trashy film and indulged in pure escapism. Had I been more committed to trying to be a 'proper' Buddhist (as opposed to surviving) I might have pushed that, tried to force myself through it, with bad results.

I don't think meditation should be dismissed as a tool to help depression - but nor should it be seen as the only tool, and it must be handled with caution, and above all, with attention to the individual. Someone else with long-term depression, superficially similar to mine, could come into this thread and write a totally different post - and not be wrong, just going through a different experience of depression to me.

I think that will do for now - I have some fairly strong views on therapy, the NHS, and on the merits (or not) of monks (and religious leaders, doctors, friends . . . ) expressing their personal idea for 'curing' depression, but in the interests of keeping this not too long and reasonably rational (and me getting on with my job), I'll leave it at this for now.
User avatar
TheNoBSBuddhist
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:06 pm
Location: Loch Lomond, via the High AND Low road....

Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

The emoticon :goodpost: doesn't even begin to cover it.

Excellent response, precisely what I had hoped for.
Bless you friend, and much Metta to you. :hug:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by No_Mind »

Feathers has summarized it wonderfully. There is virtually nothing more to add. I have had mild to moderate depression for about 20 years. I have never sought treatment for it. In a way I like being a slightly melancholy person. It makes me more creative.
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10163
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by Spiny Norman »

waterchan wrote:I think it's more accurate to say that by the time one can practice correct metta meditation, one is no longer chronically depressed. But I would be hesitant to prescribe it as a cure. "You have depression. Metta meditation will cure it."
I think that anyone teaching meditation has a duty of care, and that anyone suffering from clinical depression should be advised to seek professional medical advice and care.
Metta can be helfpul in promoting mental health, but should not be viewed as a "cure" for serious depression.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10163
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by Spiny Norman »

Feathers wrote:Depression is a meaningless term.
That's the problem. ;)
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
TheNoBSBuddhist
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:06 pm
Location: Loch Lomond, via the High AND Low road....

Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Spiny Norman wrote:
waterchan wrote:I think it's more accurate to say that by the time one can practice correct metta meditation, one is no longer chronically depressed. But I would be hesitant to prescribe it as a cure. "You have depression. Metta meditation will cure it."
I think that anyone teaching meditation has a duty of care, and that anyone suffering from clinical depression should be advised to seek professional medical advice and care.
Metta can be helfpul in promoting mental health, but should not be viewed as a "cure" for serious depression.
:goodpost:
Quite.... This was the point of my requesting feedback from members.

And I am going to stick my 'NoBS' neck out and give the opinion that while I completely concur that in all matters to do with Buddhist practice, Sutta/teaching reference and questions on Morals, ethics and implementation of the Buddha's legacy, the Ordained members of this on-line community should absolutely be respected and be unopposed, insofar as discussion and debate permits and dictates, but in matters such as this one, there are instances in which their comments and opinions may well be brought to task, questioned and even challenged.
Simply because the person is ordained, does not make them infallible with regard to issues and matters outside their remit.
In no part of his instructions did the venerable Bhante, either mention that clinical, diagnosed and medically-treated depression should be carefully considered in this practice, but he further made no disclaimer, gave no caveats, warnings or made any recommendations in reference to that.
I personally feel that's a serious and dangerous omission.
If this kind of opinion is still unacceptable and taboo, then there's something unreasonable in that....Ordained members are still humans, and as such, still subject to making mistakes, as we all are... There's nothing wrong with that, it's only natural and to be expected, isn't it? But this is a serious matter.

Hence my wanting to bring it to light.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by tiltbillings »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote: Hence my wanting to bring it to light.
You brought it to light, now maybe you might consider that it might be a good thing to have civil, prvt conversation with the Ven S?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Depression and Meditation

Post by SarathW »

I knew two people very close to me taking anti depression medication.
One took her life, the other person attempted to take her life but came back from a three months coma.
When I had a miner depression doctors prescribed me some mediction.
I did not take the medicine but practice Metta meditation every morning which help me to pull through my problems.

Please note this is not a medical advise.

I do not think that I had a clinical depression (what ever it is).
I still do not know or understand what depression means.
I am not sure whether doctors know that either.
A person said to me, if I think That I have depression that means I do not have one.

:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Post Reply