The Great Betrayal of Theravada Buddism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: The Great Betrayal of Theravada Buddism

Post by SarathW »

:goodpost: Mike
I certainly agree with you.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
LXNDR
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Re: The Great Betrayal of Theravada Buddism

Post by LXNDR »

Mkoll wrote:
LXNDR wrote:however if practicing Dhamma wouldn't require renunciation of the world, Buddha wouldn't have created the Order or recommended a recluse lifestyle, after all this is the way he himself achieved liberation
The Buddha taught householders how to practice the Dhamma. So practicing Dhamma doesn't require renunciation of the world.

Perhaps you meant that realizing Nibbana requires renunciation of the world?
you can put it this way, at the same time it's the realization of nibbana which is the principle goal of the Dhamma, let's recall the the 3d and 4th Noble Truths, and anything which doesn't serve this goal properly is of little importance

i can imagine that Buddha couldn't tell laymen who would donate to the Order and sustain monks 'You're out of luck, fellows'
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mikenz66
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Re: The Great Betrayal of Theravada Buddism

Post by mikenz66 »

LXNDR wrote:It's the realization of nibbana which is the principle goal of the Dhamma, let's recall the 4th Noble Truth, and anything which doesn't serve this goal properly is of little importance
Certainly, and according to the suttas, generosity, virtue, and so on are important foundations for that goal, as I mentioned above: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 59#p294557

:anjali:
Mike
LXNDR
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Re: The Great Betrayal of Theravada Buddism

Post by LXNDR »

mikenz66 wrote: So I think that it is important to examine the big picture, and not dismiss the teachings directed to lay people.
:anjali:
Mike
mikenz66 wrote:
LXNDR wrote:It's the realization of nibbana which is the principle goal of the Dhamma, let's recall the 4th Noble Truth, and anything which doesn't serve this goal properly is of little importance
Certainly, and according to the suttas, generosity, virtue, and so on are important foundations for that goal, as I mentioned above: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 59#p294557

:anjali:
Mike

absolutely, i don't deny the importance of these qualities, generosity is itself a type of renunciation

the teachings to laity should not be dismissed, not least because implementing them does good to the society, but they should be taken for what they are and their importance for success in attaining the 'final peace' should not be overemphasized
pegembara
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Re: The Great Betrayal of Theravada Buddism

Post by pegembara »

LXNDR wrote:
Denisa wrote:I did lot of charity, especially towards poor people even before I became a Buddhist. But it never occurred to me: "how much merit I gain from this generosity? Is it big? Whether people recognize me for my generosity? What will I get in next life?" I did them because it helps someone in need, made them happy, and I felt wholesomely happy by letting go something I possess. Only after getting touched with Buddhism I saw a greater deal of emphasis on merit making. From my understanding on kamma, every action (in this case generosity) can create a result whether you worry about merit or not. I think if one crave for merit that will not serve the purpose of generosity/letting go, it would be more like a business transaction.
i agree and think that from the practice standpoint to be beneficial for the giver the giving must be devoid of egotistic motives

the theory of recipients of different degrees of worth, giving to whom endows with different amount of merit, is counterproductive in this respect, because it can corrupt minds of potential givers and help to enroot their conceit rather than uproot it, make them think of their own good while deciding to give rather than of the recipient's, make their decision selfish
I take this to mean that the Buddha was employing skillful means initially through spiritual materialism as a starting point. The last few sentences reveal his real intention which is to transcend the world.
Once, when the Buddha was dwelling near Savatthi at the Jeta Grove, the householder Anathapindika visited him and, after greeting him politely, sat down at one side.
The Exalted One addressed Anathapindika, “Are alms given in your house, householder?”
“Yes, Lord, alms are given by my family, but they consist only of broken rice and sour gruel.”
“Householder, whether one gives coarse or choice alms, if one gives with respect, thoughtfully, by one’s own hand, gives things tht are not leftovers, and with belief in the result of actions, then, wherever one is born as a result of having given with respect, the mind will experience pleasantness.”
“Long ago, householder, there lived a brahman named Velama who gave very valuable gifts. He gave thousands of bowls of gold, silver and copper, filled with jewels; thousands of horses with trappings; banners and nets of gold; carriages spread with saffron-colored blankets; thousands of milk-giving cows with fine jute ropes and silver milk pails; beds with covers od fleece, white blankets, embroidered coverlets, and with crimson cushions at the ends; lengths of cloth of the best flax, silk, wool and cotton. And how to describe all the food, sweets and syrups that he gave? They flowed like rivers.”
“Householder, who was the brahman who made those very valuable gifts? It was me.”
“But, when those gifts were given, householder, there were no worthy recipients. Although the brahman Velama gave such valuable gifts, if he had fed just one person of right view, the fruit of the latter deed would have been greater.”
“…and though he fed a hundred people of right view, the fruit of feeding a Once-returner would have been greater.”
“…and though he fed a hundred Sakadagamis, the fruit of feeding one Non-returner would have been greater.”
“…and though he fed a hundred Anagamis, the fruit of feeding one Arahat would have been greater.”
“…and though he fed a hundred Arahats, the fruit of feeding one Non-teaching Buddha would have been greater.”
“…and though he fed a hundred Paccekkabuddhas, the fruit of feeding a Perfect One, a Teaching Buddha, would have been greater.”
“…and though he fed a Sammasambuddha, the fruit of feeding the Order of monks with the Buddha at its head would have been greater.”
“…and though he fed the Sangha with the Buddha at its head, the fruit of building a monastery for the use of the Sangha would have been greater.”
“…and though he built a monastery for the monks, the fruit of sincerely taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and the Sangha would have been greater.”
“…and though he sincerely took refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and the Sangha, the fruit of sincerely undertaking the Five Moral Precepts would have been greater.”
“…and though he sincerely undertook the Five Precepts, the fruit of developing (concentration on radiating) metta, even for just to the extent of a whiff of scent, would have been greater.”
“…and though he developed universal lovingkindness, the fruit of cultivating the awareness of anicca-even for the moment of a finger snap-would have been greater.”
Anguttara Nikaya, Navakanipata, Sutta 20
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: The Great Betrayal of Theravada Buddism

Post by SarathW »

Thanks Pegembra.
It is very interesting.
I wonder why he did not mention Dukkha and Anatta.
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Mkoll
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Re: The Great Betrayal of Theravada Buddism

Post by Mkoll »

SarathW wrote:Thanks Pegembra.
It is very interesting.
I wonder why he did not mention Dukkha and Anatta.
:thinking:
Perhaps, because he was addressing a householder and not monks, he didn't go into the teaching as deeply. I think this is true in many cases.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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mikenz66
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Re: The Great Betrayal of Theravada Buddism

Post by mikenz66 »

It seems that in some circumstances only one member of a list is mentioned (in this case anicca). Another argument would be that anicca implies the other two, as in the Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta.

:anjali:
Mike
beeblebrox
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Re: The Great Betrayal of Theravada Buddism

Post by beeblebrox »

LXNDR wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
LXNDR wrote:the Dhamma wasn't meant for laity in the first place and thus compromise had to be invented to engage them in it and keep as benefactors of the Order
There are many, many suttas directed addressed specifically to laypeople and householders by the Buddha himself. There are suttas where householders are said to have Noble attainments. Are you suggesting that all of these suttas are later inventions?
no, i am not

the compromise could have been invented by the Buddha himself, if everybody would go forth into the homelessness there would be nobody left to feed the Sangha
Hi LXNDR,

They're not compromises... I think you probably underestimate how deep the Buddha's teachings actually go.
LXNDR wrote: however if practicing Dhamma wouldn't require renunciation of the world, Buddha wouldn't have created the Order or recommended a recluse lifestyle, after all this is the way he himself achieved liberation
The Buddha still needed a girl (Sujata) to feed him some rice pudding, before he actually achieved liberation.
nibbana is difficult enough to be attained even by a renunciate, let alone by a lay person immersed in worldly affairs
Right, the nibbana is difficult... that was why the Buddha needed a girl to feed him.

I wonder what the morning star represented..?

It is a small planet that leads the sun. The Buddha saw it on the day of his enlightenment.

:anjali:
pegembara
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Re: The Great Betrayal of Theravada Buddism

Post by pegembara »

SarathW wrote:Thanks Pegembra.
It is very interesting.
I wonder why he did not mention Dukkha and Anatta.
:thinking:
Anicca covers the other 2 aspect. It is because of anicca that there is also anatta.

Image

Where has the caterpillar gone to?

The caterpillar did not become a butterfly. It remains as a caterpillar. The butterfly is not a caterpillar but it's existence depends on the caterpillar. Cause and effect.

Constant change (anicca) means that there is no permanent unchanging entity (anatta). Seeing in this way it becomes clear that nothing ever dies because in reality there are no-thing. "Things" don't exist the way we think they do. There are only processes. Birth, aging and death are only processes happening to no one.

To use a Zen quote (oops, sorry)
“Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You can not say that winter becomes spring, or that spring becomes summer.” Dogen
“See this world with its gods,
considering self in what is not-self.
Immersed in this recognition of objects,
they imagine this as real.

Whatever they can imagine,
only becomes something else.
Therefore such is falsehood,
its ever changing nature."


Sn. 3.12 – Dvayatānupassanāsuttaṃ
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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