Like function?

Tell us how you think the forum can be improved. We will listen.
dhammapal
Posts: 2647
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:23 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Could we have a 'like' button....

Post by dhammapal »

Hi,

I really discovered Facebook in January 2014 and the Like button is vital, not just for encouragement "Sadhu!" but because it means the threshold for identifying new friends is so low just a click whereas here you have to interrupt the conversation with a reply even if it is only a "Good Post". My main Facebook group is experiencing more than exponential growth. I checked out "DhammaWheel on Facebook" and people aren't using the Like button very much.

In the Anguttara Nikaya the Buddha repeatedly censured being stingy with praise as a fetter.

With metta / dhammapal.
SarathW
Posts: 21240
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Could we have a 'like' button....

Post by SarathW »

Modus.Ponens wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:
Good policy. There are plenty of boards where popularity contests and the lowest common denominator dictate content. Dhammawheel is a nice refuge from that sort of thing.
Like

:P
:thumbsup:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
dhammapal
Posts: 2647
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:23 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Could we have a 'like' button....

Post by dhammapal »

I can see the logic now. I remembered this quote:
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:There have been periods in the history of Buddhism when monks would put fans in front of their faces so that they wouldn't read the reaction of the people out there, the idea being that the audience would be more likely to actually hear the genuine Dharma when the speaker isn't trying to read the audience and please them.
From: The Freedom to Give by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
With metta / dhammapal.
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6594
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Like function?

Post by Mkoll »

Is there a simple way to implement/enable a "like" function into the forum's code? If so, maybe we can hold a vote on implementing it? I find that browsing forums with a like function makes it easier to recognize posts/posters worth reading in the limited time I want to spend visiting a forum.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Like function?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mkoll,

Technical feasibility aside, this matter has been raised, discussed and rejected quite a few times over the years, just as recently as February this year.

I might have the opportunity to look around for previous discussions next time I'm back in front of a PC.

UPDATE: OK, here we go...

Thumbs up button
Could we have a 'like' button....
Likes or +1 or something like that
(and these are just the "public" discussions, there have also likely been conversations behind the scenes too with similar points raised...)

For the record, I'm against it for the same reasons as before. Such functionality might be pragmatic for example on a technical site that offers technical solutions to technical problems, so that members can highlight which solutions actually work, but the Dhamma is so diverse in terms of scope, application and relevance to different people of different dispositions and experience... all I see it leading to in such an environment is unproductive patterns like ego-inflation, narcissism, popularity contests, virtue signalling, bullying, group think, cliques and discouraging diversity in thought. These are all qualities, behaviours and forum attributes which the current administration and moderators are not looking to give rise to, especially since they have all existed here at previous times in the past, to greater or lesser degrees, and were not beneficial to the forum.

In keeping with our principle of intellectual and spiritual autonomy, individuals can judge for themselves what is meritorious or not... there is no need to defer this necessary discernment to anonymous strangers. After all, the path to enlightenment is not decided by majority vote.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6594
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: Like function?

Post by Mkoll »

Well, things change. Has there ever been a public vote on it?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Like function?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mkoll,
Mkoll wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:38 am Has there ever been a public vote on it?
No, and it's not a democracy so there's no need for one. That said, there's nothing stopping you from creating an opinion poll, should you wish.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6594
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: Like function?

Post by Mkoll »

Just because the forum is not a democracy, that doesn't mean a public vote (with comments) can't be informative and even useful. Even dictators use statistics.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Like function?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mkoll,
Mkoll wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:44 am Just because the forum is not a democracy, that doesn't mean a public vote (with comments) can't be informative and even useful. Even dictators use statistics.
That's what I said. You're welcome to create a poll if you're really interested in doing so. If you do, maybe link back to the previous topics above so people can understand why what seems on the surface like a decent idea, would simply foster the unwholesome qualities and patterns noted in my initial response to you above.

Personally, rather than a bunch of numbers, I'd be more convinced by a well reasoned argument that explained the benefits and demonstrated how they exceeded or at least mitigated the negative outcomes defined in my earlier post.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6594
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: Like function?

Post by Mkoll »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:48 am Greetings Mkoll,
Mkoll wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:44 am Just because the forum is not a democracy, that doesn't mean a public vote (with comments) can't be informative and even useful. Even dictators use statistics.
That's what I said. You're welcome to create a poll if you're really interested in doing so. If you do, maybe link back to the previous topics above so people can understand why what seems on the surface like a decent idea, would simply foster the unwholesome qualities and patterns noted in my initial response to you above.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Well ultimately it wouldn't matter if I created a poll because even if it got a majority vote, the authority of the forum, i.e. you, would veto it.

:shrug:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Like function?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mkoll,
Mkoll wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:53 am Well ultimately it wouldn't matter if I created a poll because even if it got a majority vote, the authority of the forum, i.e. you, would veto it.
David and I are definitely against it, as you can see from comments made in the previous discussions linked to above.

I also don't know of a moderator who has ever been in favour of it either, in the history of this forum. Remember, we spend a lot of time looking at the forum through a lens of the Terms of Service compliance and in terms of facilitating minimum standards for civil engagement, and in both regards (particularly the latter), the projected outcomes for such a function would be negative.

Many potential forum features would be neutral in terms of their impact on behaviours, but given this is not one of them, it's not one we're going to consider implementing... as I expect you already know from when this matter was raised earlier in the year, and clearly and unambiguously rejected by both David and myself.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6594
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: Like function?

Post by Mkoll »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:31 amall I see it leading to in such an environment is unproductive patterns like ego-inflation, narcissism, popularity contests, bullying, group think and cliques. These are all qualities and forum behaviours which the current administration are not looking to give rise to.
IME, those patterns arise to the same degree with or without a like function. They're patterns conditioned by defilements, not the like function.

The benefit that a well-implemented like function brings is convenience and efficiency to those of us with limited time to browse forums to find posts that are most worth reading in our limited time.

And for the record, I frequent forums with and without like functions and unequivocally prefer having a like function vs. not having one.
there is no need to defer such discernment to anonymous strangers.
Like functions don't have to be anonymous. Like functions can provide a perfect public record of exactly which individual users liked what. I can show examples if you or anyone asks.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Like function?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mkoll,
Mkoll wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:27 am They're patterns conditioned by defilements, not the like function.
Sure... but in the Dhamma, there is value given to the practice of sense restraint. Yet, due to some members lack of sense restraint, staff already have to put up with much in the way of senseless tantrums, whinging, moaning and complaining. We feel that such problems would be exacerbated, not minimized, by inflaming those defilements through the act of turning each and every post into a popularity contest.

On a related note, nowadays, I personally refrain from certain discussion topics, because some members' emotional regulation and tolerance is so poor that they get triggered by the mere presence of views that differ from their own. I find it baffling that people who cannot cope with alternative views would attend and participate in a forum environment, but there you go.

I'm not sure whether this is a byproduct of societal trends, and/or whether we're just more attuned to it, but staff have enough to do in terms of moderating and administering this forum without tending to the emotional meltdowns of adults who should in all honesty be capable of owning and managing their own emotions. Maybe if some members had better emotional regulation, we could consider such functionality, and we wouldn't need to be so mindful of not "triggering" them - yet we do. I can understand that as a member you may not see the full scope of this activity, but sometimes it feels like we are baby-sitting a room of man-babies. Not always, but far too often for my liking.

Mkoll wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:27 am The benefit that a well-implemented like function brings is convenience and efficiency to those of us with limited time to browse forums to find posts that are most worth reading in our limited time.
If you wish to outsource your thinking and reading materials to the masses, then you're welcome to hold that preference I guess.

Mkoll wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:27 am Like functions don't have to be anonymous. Like functions can provide a perfect public record of exactly which individual users liked what. I can show examples if you or anyone asks.
Well that's even worse, given we're trying to discourage unproductive egotistical activities like virtue signalling and white knighting.

Thank you.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6594
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: Could we have a 'like' button....

Post by Mkoll »

Given that Paul (retrofuturist) has used his power to lock my just-created thread here, viewtopic.php?f=11&t=30346, and suggested we continue the discussion in another thread, I've chosen this thread out of the ones he has dictated.

Does anyone have anything further to add to the suggestion for a like function, for or against? Of course, if there is no support from other members for a like function, I'm happy to drop the subject and not mention again.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Like function?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mkoll,

Better still, I've now merged the two topics in order to keep the discussion altogether...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Post Reply