The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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retrofuturist
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,
Chris wrote:Parts of the Abhidhamma were recited at the earlier Buddhist Councils, and, at the Third Council it became fixed into its present form when the Katthavatthu was added.
Guide Through the Abdhidhamma Pitaka, by Nyanatiloka Mahathera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983), p xi.
It would be interesting to know what "parts" meant. Is it talking something structured, such as an Abhidhamma book, or is it talking about, for example, suttas such that those which you listed recently that show Sutta-teachings which went on to become foundational in the Abhidhamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Ben »

From Bhikkhu Bodhi:
Although modern critical scholarship attempts to explain the formation of the Abhdihamma by a gradual evolutionary process, Theravada orthodoxy assigns its genesis to the Buddha himself. According to the Great Commentary (maha-atthakatha) quoted by Acariya Buddhaghosa, "What is known as Abhidhamma is not the province nor the sphere of a disciple: it is the province, the sphere of the Buddhas". (Asl 410; Expos., p.519)
The commentarial tradition holds, moreover, that it was not merely the spirit of the Abhdihamma, but the letter as well, that was already realised and expounded by the Buddha during his lifetime
--CMA, p.9
More to follow...

Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,

In that "more to follow", can you include what Bhikkhu Bodhi says in the intro to SN?

If not, I'll try to get around to it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Ben »

Hi Paul
Yes, I will endeavour to transcribe sections from the introduction to CMA though I am about to go to work and work is crazy this week.
If I get round to it, I'll also include relevent sections from the intro to the SN, and if I can find it, quotes from Nyantiponika Thera in Abhdihamma Studies.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

No worries Ben. Actually it turns out it wasn't the intro to SN I was thinking of, though it possibly gives a clue on pages 33/34 as to the "seeds" referred to above.

I would type it now, but I'm off to plant trees down Werribee Gorge / Pentland Hills way for my "Community Leave Day" at work.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Ben »

I hope its a nice day out for you Paul. Its clouding over here and I am hoping its going to rain and force the cancellation of an event that will put some considerable work pressure on me over the next 48 hours.

I'll have a look in the intro to the SN anyway, though I may not get around to it for a couple of days.

What I failed to add in my earlier post is that the material that Bhikkhu Bodhi and Nyanaponika Thera provide should give pause for thought for those on all sides of the discussion.
Kind regardds

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Assaji »

Hi Retro,
As you doubtlessly know, the Abhidhammattha Sanghaha translates as "the Compendium of Things contained in the Abhidhamma" (p15). Given your reluctance to accept it as a reference indicative of the teachings of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, do you therefore question that the prominent Abhidhammattha Sanghaha is actually a "compendium of things contained in the Abhidhamma" after all?
Abhidhammattha Sangaha was written in the twelfth century, and is very different from Abhidhamma-pitaka.

Dhammasangani is one of the earliest parts of the Abhidhama-pitaka, and there's no cognitive series of mind-moments involved.

Here's a matika of Dhammasangani:

http://www.buddhanet-de.net/ancient-bud ... Matrix.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A good comparative overview:

http://books.google.com.ua/books?id=pH8 ... 3#PPA84,M1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's essential to differentiate Abhidhamma-pitaka from medieval Abhidhamma.

Abhidhamma-pitaka was approved in its present form of seven books on the Theravada Third Council, presided by Moggaliputta Tissa, in 3rd Century BCE. One of the books, Katthavatthu, was compiled by Moggaliputta Tissa himself.

Vimuttimagga, the text of the first century CE, refers to Patisambhidamagga as 'Abhidhamma'. So there are good reason to consider this work, ascribed to Sariputta, to be an essential part of early Abhidhamma.

Metta, Dmytro
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dmytro,
Dmytro wrote:A good comparative overview:

http://books.google.com.ua/books?id=pH8 ... 3#PPA84,M1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Looking through the section you pointed me to and some other bits, it looks like a very interesting text... I hope to have the time to read a fair bit of it shortly.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

A couple of similarly themed discussions from the chat archives of the Internet!

The Place of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, Any real need for controversy? (E-Sangha)
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... opic=26053" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The history of Abhidhamma Pitaka (Web Sangha)
http://www.websangha.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=236" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Certainly an interesting range of diverse and well-considered options in those topics! A few familiar faces too...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben, all,
retrofuturist wrote:Actually it turns out it wasn't the intro to SN I was thinking of, though it possibly gives a clue on pages 33/34 as to the "seeds" referred to above.

I would type it now, but I'm off to plant trees down Werribee Gorge / Pentland Hills way for my "Community Leave Day" at work.
... and now that I'm back and mildly sunburnt...
Bhikkhu Bodhi, Samyutta Nikaya, pp34-35 wrote:From this way of characterizing the two Nikayas, we might see SN and AN as offering two complementary perspectives on the Dhamma, both inherent in the original teaching. SN opens up to us the profound perspective reached through contemplative insight, where the familiar consensual world of persons and things gives way to the sphere of impersonal conditioned phenomena arising and perishing in accordance with laws of conditionality. This is the perspective on reality that, in the next stage in the evolution of Buddhist thought, will culminate in the Abhidhamma. Indeed, the connection between SN and the Abhidhamma appears to be a close one, and we might even speculate that it was the nonsubstantialist perspective so prominent in SN that directly gave rise to the type of inquiry that crystallized in the Abhidhamma philosophy. The close relationship between the two is especially evident from the second book of the Pali Abhidhamma Pitaka, the Vibhanga, which consists of eighteen treatises each devoted to the analyis of a particular doctrinal topic. Of these eighteen, the first twelve have their counterparts in SN. Since most of these treatises included a "Suttanta Analysis" (suttantabhajaniya) as well as a more technical "Abhidhamma Analysis" (abhidhammabhajinaya), it is conceivable that the Suttanta Analyses of the Vibhanga were the primordial seeds of the Abhidhamma and that it was among the specialists in SN that the idea arose of devising a more technical expository system which eventually came to be called the Abhidhamma.
The Samyutta Nikaya is cool :thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Ben »

The SN is indeed a jewel. Though my forays have been very brief as I am still wading very slowly through the Majjhima.
I think I;ve run out of time tonight to do any wholescale transcription from CMA, I think its going to be a couple of days considering my commitments...
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
pt1
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by pt1 »

Ben wrote: Yes, I will endeavour to transcribe sections from the introduction to CMA though I am about to go to work and work is crazy this week.
Hi Ben, no need to transcribe, the introduction to CMA is available on ATI :
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... himan.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A few quick snippets from it that seem relevant to the discussion:
At the heart of the Abhidhamma philosophy is the Abhidhamma Pitaka, one of the divisions of the Pali canon recognized by Theravada Buddhism as the authoritative recension of the Buddha's teachings. This canon was compiled at the three great Buddhist councils held in India in the early centuries following the Buddha's demise...
Perhaps robertk could comment here, if I recall correctly in one of the previous discussions, he mentioned that abdhidhamma pitaka was recited at all three councils, and it is only kathavatthu that was being changed because of the inclusion of refutations of various heretical points that arose in the three centuries after the Buddha's death, and then kathavatthu was also closed by the third council.
Unlike the Suttas, these are not records of discourses and discussions occurring in real-life settings; they are, rather, full-blown treatises in which the principles of the doctrine have been methodically organized, minutely defined, and meticulously tabulated and classified. Though they were no doubt originally composed and transmitted orally and only written down later, with the rest of the canon in the first century B.C., they exhibit the qualities of structured thought and rigorous consistency more typical of written documents.
This is a bit inconclusive for our discussion, as it seems to imply both that abhidhamma came early, but was "composed" - which presumably implies that it's not a direct word of the Buddha, but a summary of his words? This in fact seems plausible considering the origin story - Sariputta hearing from the Buddha a summary of abhidhamma which he taught to the gods, and then Sariputta retelling what he heard to his group of disciples, who were all very keen on insight like him, whereas Mogallana's students were keen on iddhis, Anuruddha's on divine eye, etc, if I remember rightly. Oh yeah, and I think most of them were arahats as well, so no lying and fixing possible there.
In the Theravada tradition the Abhidhamma Pitaka is held in the highest esteem, revered as the crown jewel of the Buddhist scriptures.
That's the thing about Theravada - it really holds abhidhamma very dear, and considers that what Theras were saying to be true. So, for someone who follows the sayings of the Theras, I think it's okay to refute the authenticity of mahayana scriptures, simply because that's not what our Theras were saying. But to refute abhidhamma means to refute the Theras, and as such I'm not sure how one can be a Theravada Buddhist in that case. Sure one can still be a Buddhist, maybe a Modern Buddhist, or a Sarvastivada Buddhist, but not a Theravada Buddhist I would think (hmm, by that definition I'm a modern buddhist most of the time - when I'm not reading CMA that is :smile: ).

Best wishes
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

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pt1 wrote:
In the Theravada tradition the Abhidhamma Pitaka is held in the highest esteem, revered as the crown jewel of the Buddhist scriptures.
That's the thing about Theravada - it really holds abhidhamma very dear, and considers that what Theras were saying to be true. So, for someone who follows the sayings of the Theras, I think it's okay to refute the authenticity of mahayana scriptures, simply because that's not what our Theras were saying. But to refute abhidhamma means to refute the Theras, and as such I'm not sure how one can be a Theravada Buddhist in that case. Sure one can still be a Buddhist, maybe a Modern Buddhist, or a Sarvastivada Buddhist, but not a Theravada Buddhist I would think (hmm, by that definition I'm a modern buddhist most of the time - when I'm not reading CMA that is :smile: ).

Best wishes
Or you could hold the Abhidhamma to be of immense value and authentic words of the Theras, but not necessarily see it as Buddhavacana. It was certainly composed and written by Theras, but that does not necessarily make it the exact words of Buddha. They can even be considered highly beneficial and important, but Buddhavacana is another matter.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by pt1 »

Hi all, this part of the introduction to CMA by Bhikkhu Bodhi seems most relevant to our discussion, so I'll reproduce it here together with the first paragraph that Ben transcribed earlier so that people don't need to search for it on the previous page.
The Origins of the Abhidhamma

Although modern critical scholarship attempts to explain the formation of the Abhidhamma by a gradual evolutionary process,4 Theravada orthodoxy assigns its genesis to the Buddha himself. According to the Great Commentary (maha-atthakatha) quoted by Acariya Buddhaghosa, "What is known as Abhidhamma is not the province nor the sphere of a disciple; it is the province, the sphere of the Buddhas."5 The commentarial tradition holds, moreover, that it was not merely the spirit of the Abhidhamma, but the letter as well, that was already realized and expounded by the Buddha during his lifetime.

The Atthasalini relates that in the fourth week after the Enlightenment, while the Blessed One was still dwelling in the vicinity of the Bodhi Tree, he sat in a jewel house (ratanaghara) in the northwest direction. This jewel house was not literally a house made of precious stones, but was the place where he contemplated the seven books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. He contemplated their contents in turn, beginning with the Dhammasangani, but while investigating the first six books his body did not emit rays. However, upon coming to the Patthana, when "he began to contemplate the twenty-four universal conditional relations of root, object, and so on, his omniscience certainly found its opportunity therein. For as the great fish Timiratipingala finds room only in the great ocean 84,000 yojanas in depth, so his omniscience truly finds room only in the Great Book. Rays of six colors — indigo, golden, red, white, tawny, and dazzling — issued from the Teacher's body, as he was contemplating the subtle and abstruse Dhamma by his omniscience which had found such opportunity."6

Theravada orthodoxy thus maintains that the Abhidhamma Pitaka is authentic Word of the Buddha, in this respect differing from an early rival school, the Sarvastivadins. This school also had an Abhidhamma Pitaka consisting of seven books, considerably different in detail from the Theravada treatises. According to the Sarvastivadins, the books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka were composed by Buddhist disciples, several being attributed to authors who appeared generations after the Buddha. The Theravada school, however, holds that the Blessed One himself expounded the books of the Abhidhamma, except for the detailed refutation of deviant views in the Kathavatthu, which was the work of the Elder Moggaliputta Tissa during the reign of Emperor Asoka.

The Pali Commentaries, apparently drawing upon an old oral tradition, maintain that the Buddha expounded the Abhidhamma, not in the human world to his human disciples, but to the assembly of devas or gods in the Tavatimsa heaven. According to this tradition, just prior to his seventh annual rains retreat the Blessed One ascended to the Tavatimsa heaven and there, seated on the Pandukambala stone at the foot of the Paricchattaka tree, for the three months of the rains he taught the Abhidhamma to the devas who had assembled from the ten thousand world-systems. He made the chief recipient of the teaching his mother, Mahamaya-devi, who had been reborn as a deva. The reason the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma in the deva world rather than in the human realm, it is said, is because in order to give a complete picture of the Abhidhamma it has to be expounded from the beginning to the end to the same audience in a single session. Since the full exposition of the Abhidhamma requires three months, only devas and Brahmas could receive it in unbroken continuity, for they alone are capable of remaining in one posture for such a length of time.

However, each day, to sustain his body, the Buddha would descend to the human world to go on almsround in the northern region of Uttarakuru. After collecting almsfood he went to the shore of Anotatta Lake to partake of his meal. The Elder Sariputta, the General of the Dhamma, would meet the Buddha there and receive a synopsis of the teaching given that day in the deva world: "Then to him the Teacher gave the method, saying, 'Sariputta, so much doctrine has been shown.' Thus the giving of the method was to the chief disciple, who was endowed with analytical knowledge, as though the Buddha stood on the edge of the shore and pointed out the ocean with his open hand. To the Elder also the doctrine taught by the Blessed One in hundreds and thousands of methods became very clear."7

Having learned the Dhamma taught him by the Blessed One, Sariputta in turn taught it to his own circle of 500 pupils, and thus the textual recension of the Abhidhamma Pitaka was established. To the Venerable Sariputta is ascribed the textual order of the Abhidhamma treatises as well as the numerical series in the Patthana. Perhaps we should see in these admissions of the Atthasalini an implicit acknowledgement that while the philosophical vision of the Abhidhamma and its basic architecture originate from the Buddha, the actual working out of the details, and perhaps even the prototypes of the texts themselves, are to be ascribed to the illustrious Chief Disciple and his entourage of students. In other early Buddhist schools, too, the Abhidhamma is closely connected with the Venerable Sariputta, who in some traditions is regarded as the literal author of Abhidhamma treatises.8

Notes:
4. See, for example, the following: A.K. Warder, Indian Buddhism, 2nd rev. ed. (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1980), pp. 218-24; Fumimaro Watanabe, Philosophy and its Development in the Nikayas and Abhidhamma (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1983), pp. 18-67; and the article "Abhidharma Literature" by Kogen Mizuno in Encyclopaedia of Buddhism, Fasc. 1 (Govt. of Ceylon, 1961).
5. Asl. 410; Expos., p. 519
6. Asl. 13; Expos., pp. 16-17
7. Asl. 16; Expos., p. 20
8. The first book of the Sarvastivadin Abhidharma, the Sangitiparyaya, is ascribed to Sariputta by Chinese sources (but not by Sanskrit and Tibetan sources), while the second book, the Dharmaskandha, is ascribed to him by Sanskrit and Tibetan sources (but not by Chinese sources). The Chinese canon also contains a work entitled the Shariputra Abhidharma-Shastra, the school of which is not known.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

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retrofuturist wrote: The Place of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, Any real need for controversy? (E-Sangha)
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... opic=26053" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The history of Abhidhamma Pitaka (Web Sangha)
http://www.websangha.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=236" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A lot of information and views there. I have just started skimming some of it. Here is one from Bhikkhu Pesala:
In my view, before trying to claim that the Abhidhamma is or is not the Buddha's teaching, we should acquire a thorough knowledge of the Tipitaka. Then we would be well qualified to compare the Abhidhamma to the Suttanta and Vinaya to see if it is compatible or not. It is not a topic that could be discussed by the average Buddhist these days, at least not to reach any useful conclusions. If it interests you, study it. If not, study something else.

Why bother to argue about whether or not it really belongs in the Tipitaka? Those learned elders who participated in the Sixth Buddhist Council thought so. Mingun Jetavan Sayādaw thought it worth spending several years of his precious life memorising and studying it. Has anyone here memorized even one book of the Dīghanikāya or Majjhimanikāya? You have all memorized at least one of the Long Discourses like the Mahāsatipatthāna Sutta at least surely?

There is no evidence to suggest that the Abhidhamma was rehearsed at the First Buddhist Council. Perhaps there were good reasons for that, but it is not even mentioned.
Written back in 2006, note that Bhikkhu Pesala is Classical Theravada all the way and was trained by the best Abhidhamma masters from Burma, but also agrees that the Abhidhamma was not recited at the First Coucil.
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