The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

Jechbi wrote:
I offered this alternative in the spirit of respectful discussion, and at your request. It's unfortunate that you choose not to receive it as it was intended.
"Great liberator" does not seem to work very well, if at all. Certainly less so than Supreme God or supreme god or supreme protector or protector, all of which are far more balanced with the actual vocabulary and structure of the passage in question. The statement that God and god does not encompass “"no thing, no one, no force outside us” is also rather unusual.

As to how it was intended, hard to say. I was thinking you might have been joking, but after this exchange, I am thinking it is better to simply back away from this discussion with you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Jechbi »

Tilt,

You do not seem to appreciate that the term "God" in this context is going to be divisive and prone to misunderstanding. You do not seem to appreciate that your "Supreme God" translation does not convey the sentiments that you espouse. If these discussions at Dhamma Wheel have taught you anything, I hope they have taught you that different people mean different things when they use the term "God," and also that the term "God" can be distracting and divisive. Why you want to introduce those obstacles into your translation of this sutta passage is puzzling. It seems completely unnecessary, and completely avoidable.
tiltbillings wrote:I was thinking you might have been joking ...
I didn't show up in this discussion to be regarded as a jokester. Your method of discussion here has become unnecessarily confrontational. I note that you have edited this discussion to address this concern that I raised earlier about your post, now deleted. Unfortunately, this comment of yours isn't much better than what you wrote before.

Sorry we couldn't have a more productive discussion.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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christopher:::
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by christopher::: »

Hi Tilt and Jechbi,

It seems that you have both come to this conversation with sincerity. Problem is, some endeavors may simply be doomed to unravel, eventually. That's the conclusion i reached anyway, recently, with topics like this...

Something Ben shared yesterday in the Bhavana-maya-panna discussion.

:group:
Ben wrote:
On Differences in Views, Engage or Disengage from Discussions? I responded to Craig with:
Ben wrote:
clw_uk wrote:If no one ever challanged you and you never engaged in discussion and debate, how would you test the strength or your position? How would you know that your position isnt flawed in some way?
Bhavana-maya-panna
I wanted to draw attention to what I believe is the whole point of being a practitioner. And that is practice and the liberative wisdom that arises from practice. As others have said, including the article by SN Goenka, jechbi and zavk, sutta-maya-panna and cinta-maya-panna cannot be under-estimated in their efficacy in assisting one to walk the path, but it is bhavana-maya-panna which liberates one from suffering.

I’ve also heard my teacher use the expression pariyatti (study) and patipatti (practice) should go hand-in-hand. Elsewhere, he refers to the relationship between pariyatti and patipatti as ‘the gem set in gold’. And again elsewhere, and on the frontispiece of the Pariyatti website, we have ‘Pariyatti: illuminating the seeker’s path’.

My personal opinion is that there is limited value in continually debating points of Dhamma in some of the ways it is discussed and debated here.

I think it can be valuable in refuting someone who may be mistaken, someone intentionally spreading adhamma or for the instruction and interest to those new to Buddhism. Incessant discussions as a means of ‘challenging one’s views’, as a means of developing naana or insight into the nature of nama and rupa – its a fiction. I also think that a lot of questions that become the subject of long-running threads whether its rebirth, masturbation, bhavana-maya-pannna will evaporate if one consistently walks on the path.

We are all hurtling towards our destiny and the only thing standing between us and the grave is time. I don’t want to denigrate sincere and interested exploration and discovery of the Dhamma, but don’t just stop there, In the words of Jean Luc Picard (Star Trek: the next generation)...Engage!

Metta

Ben.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Jechbi
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Jechbi »

Thanks, Christopher. I saw Ben's post, and I agree that it is full of wisdom.
Ben wrote:My personal opinion is that there is limited value in continually debating points of Dhamma in some of the ways it is discussed and debated here.
No question about that. I don't know how I allow myself to get drawn into these things sometimes.
Ben wrote:I think it can be valuable in refuting someone who may be mistaken, someone intentionally spreading adhamma or for the instruction and interest to those new to Buddhism.
I presume this is what some members here believe they are doing with confrontational approaches to discussions. We can all ask ourselves, though, whether it's possible to come to these discussions with a greater measure of kindness and respect. fwiw.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

You do not seem to appreciate that the term "God" in this context is going to be divisive and prone to misunderstanding.
Divisive in the context of Ven Ratthapala’s teachings? Probably not. We can get a fairly clear picture from the suttas of the sort of god notions that are extant at the time of the Buddha, and they are something that the laity would have likely understood when an expression such as abhi-issaro is used. Ven Ratthapala is very uncompromising in his exposition of the Dhamma.

As for being prone to misunderstanding, you make statements such as this but do not actually support them.
You do not seem to appreciate that your "Supreme God" translation does not convey the sentiments that you espouse
Not that you have shown.
If these discussions at Dhamma Wheel have taught you anything, I hope they have taught you that different people mean different things when they use the term "God," and also that the term "God" can be distracting and divisive.
Part of the problem that has been seen here is that we have a god advocate who does not understand the difference between god and godhead. If I were to use “protector” as do Vens Thanissaro and Bodhi, I would explain that abhi-issaro is a word, in this context, inclusive of the idea of God/god, and not just an anthropomorphic god. Then what?
Why you want to introduce those obstacles into your translation of this sutta passage is puzzling. It seems completely unnecessary, and completely avoidable
Okay, so I use “protector,” and in the course of conversation I draw out the meaning of abhi-issaro and the god advocate then says: Who is the author of these statements about God, attributed to the Buddha, and have phrases been edited, mistranslated or added over time? How can we verify these statements about metaphysics, conversations with Gods and the underlying unseen nature of the Universe as truths?
Then what?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote: Another even bigger question mark in my head though is how sure can we be that the Buddha really made these statements? I think its simply impossible to know.
That is one way to try to dismiss Buddhist teachings that make you uncomfortable. Given that this text is part of the Pali tradition and is also part of the Chinese version of what is found in the Pali suttas, what we have with this text is part of the larger early Buddhist tradition.
Who is the author of these statements about God, attributed to the Buddha, and have phrases been edited, mistranslated or added over time? How can we verify these statements about metaphysics, conversations with Gods and the underlying unseen nature of the Universe as truths?
You complain about the supposed anthropomorphized, literal god, and here you are responding to these things as if they are to be taken literally. Conversations with Brahma/God does not have to be taken as a literal fact to see that a point that is being made about what it is that the Buddha teaches concerning the supposed existence of something that is supposedly the cause of all existence.
Dalai Lama states:

"This principle [of Buddhism] means that all conditioned things and events in the universe come into being only as a result of the interaction of various causes and conditions. This is significant because it precludes two possibilities. One is the possibility that things can arise from nowhere, with no causes and conditions, and the second is that things can arise on account of a transcendent designer or creator. Both these possibilities are negated."
The Buddha's teachings about how our minds work, about the 4 noble truths, 8 fold path, importance of precepts, the 4 brahma viharas, dependent origination and the ending of suffering have been verified by hundreds of thousands of practitioners across the ages. This is a recipe that has been handed to us, that we can test and apply ourselves, bringing observable results. Unfortunately, when it comes to statements about Gods and metaphysics, these teachings are unverifiable, we need to take them on faith.
Again, you have very literalistic response to these things. Using mythic language, a considerable amount of information can be gotten across. One does not need to take the mythic language literally for the truth of what is being said to be understood.

There is a reason why a god view can be seen as a problem. It could be stated directly in this way:
"The assumption that a God is the cause (of the world, etc.) is based on the false belief in the eternal self (atman, i.e. permanent spiritual substance, essence or personality); but that belief has to be abandoned, if one has clearly understood that everything is impermanent and subject to suffering." Abhidharmakosha 5, 8 vol IV, p 1.
Or it could be expressed in mythic terms as we find in the Pali suttas.
I just wonder how helpful the idea of "No God" is for our practice, if asserted to as an essential truth to defend. It could obscure and hinder one's practice as much as the idea of God, if made too important, or held too tightly.
Because someone questions the notion of a god being presented repeatedly in a Buddhist context, that does not mean that they are holding too tightly to anything. What about the god-advocate who continually insists that god has a place here?
But at this point i have too many questions, few or no answers...
You might actually want to spend some time learning what it is that the Buddha taught.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Hi Tilt,

Just out of curiosity, do you read Pali? Are you a translator?

Best,
Drolma

:anjali:
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Peter wrote:If it makes you feel better... it's not that Buddhism denies God, rather it denies God as relevant in any way shape or form.
This has always, 100% been my understanding Image
Therefore, the issue just left my mind at one point as I considered it totally irrelevant. I don't really describe myself as a very strong atheist, it's just a non-issue for me. Too bad there's no such category for people who believe that way. Like a don't-care-it's-not-part-of-my-thing category.

Thanks Peter.

Best,
Drolma
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christopher:::
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:
I just wonder how helpful the idea of "No God" is for our practice, if asserted to as an essential truth to defend. It could obscure and hinder one's practice as much as the idea of God, if made too important, or held too tightly.
Because someone questions the notion of a god being presented repeatedly in a Buddhist context, that does not mean that they are holding too tightly to anything. What about the god-advocate who continually insists that god has a place here?
I have not said that God has a place here, just that its an important (and helpful) belief for many people on our planet (who do not focus on the dhamma) and so (in my view) should be treated respectfully.

But i've said this so many times it no longer needs to be said. Better for me to simply stay out of discussions like this...

You might actually want to spend some time learning what it is that the Buddha taught.
Which I've been doing here at Dhamma Wheel, Tilt. Spending less time arguing and debating about God or masterbation, and instead focusing on things the Buddha taught, which i would like to understand better and are directly relevant to my practice...

Experiential Wisdom: Bhavana-maya panna

Cultivating upekkha (equanimity) day-to-day

Buddha's Views on Love, Compassion, Joy & Equanimity


If topics like these interest you, i'd be happy to discuss further.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

Ngawang Drolma wrote:Hi Tilt,

Just out of curiosity, do you read Pali? Are you a translator?

Best,
Drolma

:anjali:
I studied Pali for 4 years in the South Asian/Buddhist Studies Program at the University of Wisconsin in Madison, WI in the mid 80's. I am not a translator. I did some translation as part of my studies. Over the years, however, I have not kept up with it, so the facility I had then I certainly do not have now. I certainly cannot read commentarial Pali, which is very difficult. Sutta Pali is much easier, with a dictionary and a grammar book I can get at a text, but mostly I use other's translation. Ven Bodhi's are better than Ven Thanisarro's, Ven T is to commend for at least trying to break out of the dull translation mode that afflicts so many translators.

The one thing the four years of Pali study with excellent teachers has given me is an appreciation of the idea of context for understanding how a term or phrase is used.

Here is a sutta I worked on as a student, the Itivuttaka, 37-8 which contains an oft quoted section of Udana 80, and most importantly the Buddha offers a verse auto-commentary to this passage.

===

This said by the Blessed One, the Worthy One, was heard by me in this way: "Monks, there is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. For, monks if there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. But, monks, because there is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, therefore the escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning is known."

[Here the Buddha offers his own verse commentary on his statement.]

This meaning the Blessed One spoke, it is spoken here in this way:

That which is born, become, arisen, made, conditioned,
And thus unstable, put together of decay and death,
The seat of disease, brittle,
Caused and craving food,
That is not fit to find pleasure in.

Being freed of this, calmed beyond conjecture, stable,
Freed from birth, freed from arising, freed from sorrow,
Freed from passions, the elements of suffering stopped,
The conditioning [of greed, hatred and delusion] appeased,
This is ease [bliss].
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:I have not said that God has a place here, just that its an important (and helpful) belief for many people on our planet (who do not focus on the dhamma) and so (in my view) should be treated respectfully.
More than anyone, you bring god or the mysterious force up with some degree of frequency. That people hold the idea of a god in whatever guise as being important does not mean it it cannot be critiqued from a Buddhist perspective. No one here is advocating picketing churches with photos of god inspired atrocities or going door-to-door advocating atheism. Within the context of this forum criticizing the ideas of god is appropriate.
But i've said this so many times it no longer needs to be said. Better for me to simply stay out of discussions like this...
But you never do.
[Which I've been doing here at Dhamma Wheel, Tilt. Spending less time arguing and debating about God or masterbation [masturbation], and instead focusing on things the Buddha taught, which i would like to understand better and are directly relevant to my practice...
I'd be happy to give you a reading list.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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christopher:::
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:
[Here the Buddha offers his own verse commentary on his statement.]

This meaning the Blessed One spoke, it is spoken here in this way:

That which is born, become, arisen, made, conditioned,
And thus unstable, put together of decay and death,
The seat of disease, brittle,
Caused and craving food,
That is not fit to find pleasure in.

Being freed of this, calmed beyond conjecture, stable,
Freed from birth, freed from arising, freed from sorrow,
Freed from passions, the elements of suffering stopped,
The conditioning [of greed, hatred and delusion] appeased,
This is ease [bliss].

Most excellent and wise. Do you think if the Buddha were born in this day and age, he might have added "freed from endless online discussions" to the list?

:computerproblem:
tiltbillings wrote:
I'd be happy to give you a reading list.
Cool. I just shared links to the 3 topics i'm most interested in learning more about. Would very much like to hear your views, experiences and reading suggestions, if any of these interest you as well.

Please do jump in..!

Experiential Wisdom: Bhavana-maya panna

Cultivating upekkha (equanimity) day-to-day

Buddha's Views on Love, Compassion, Joy & Equanimity


:group:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Hi Tilt,

That is so cool. I mean it :twothumbsup:

I have a slight confusion. The first passage you offered is your translation, correct? And the second is the Buddha's words?. But did you not not translate the Buddha's words in Pali into English? The reason for my confusion is because the two paragraphs read so differently.

Also, I've looked up the definition for godhead twice and I can't figure out quite what that means. Could you please tell me when you have a moment?

I had toyed with the idea at one time of becoming a translator. Foreign languages have always come easily to me and it seems like really fun work. But then a professional translator told me that the only reason one would become a translator from Tibetan to English would be to read texts that would be otherwise inaccessible. Since there is so much, between Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana that's already translated into English, and I couldn't possibly read it all in one lifetime, I abandoned the idea.

As a total side note, if any TB practitioners are reading this and have an interest in reading little gems from someone who is currently translating and regularly publishing works into English, find Sherab Zangpo's webpage on myspace.com and you can find his works.

Best,
Drolma

ps. sorry to drag this off topic, I won't continue to do that once Tilt answers my question about those two paragraphs that he translated
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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

Ngawang Drolma wrote:The first passage you offered is your translation, correct? And the second is the Buddha's words?.
It is all one text by the Buddha.The first part is the basic text; the second part is the Buddha's own commentary on that. Here is a more standard translation by John Ireland:
This was said by the Lord...

"There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned."

The born, come-to-be, produced,
The made, the conditioned, the transient,
Conjoined with decay and death,
A nest of disease, perishable,
Sprung from nutriment and craving's cord —
That is not fit to take delight in.

The escape from that, the peaceful,
Beyond reasoning, everlasting,
The not-born, the unproduced,
The sorrowless state that is void of stain,
The cessation of states linked to suffering,
The stilling of the conditioned — bliss.
As for godhead; the various entries in the Wiki give a fairly good idea as the range of meaning encompassed by the term

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godhead" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Since there is so much, between Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana that's already translated into English, and I couldn't possibly read it all in one lifetime, I abandoned the idea.
[/quote]

True, but there are tons of stuff that is crying to be translated. In the Tibetan there is not a complete translation of the Agamas, which would be equivalent to the Pali suttas, but there are large hunks of that material in Tibetan in the Tibetan Canon, which would be very interesting to have access to, given the careful way things were translated into Tibetan. It would a lot to our knowledge of early Buddhism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Aloka »

But then a professional translator told me that the only reason one would become a translator from Tibetan to English would be to read texts that would be otherwise inaccessible.
True. Years ago I was going to go into the traditional 3 -4 year closed retreat for which one had to be able to read Tibetan texts. I commenced lessons with a lama's translator and then laboriously began translating texts. However my retreat had to be cancelled because of some sudden unexpected and extreme family circumstances.
I neglected the Tibetan lessons after that and then after the family problems were over, didn't continue with the retreat preparation again either . :rolleye:

Sorry, :focus:
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