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The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:16 pm

Greetings Chris,

I can't recall the exact source of that listing but I remember it being taught in Narada's "A Manual of Abhidhamma" text which later went on to form Bhikkhu Bodhi's "comprehensive" one.

Sorry the names of either escape me right now, but I've got a bus to catch soon!

In fact, I'll take it on the train today and try to find it for you...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:28 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Ben » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:47 pm

Hi Paul, David & Chris
The electronic copy of Narada's work should be on the BPS website onlinre library.
If you have trouble locating it - please let me know as i have a version I was proof-reading some months ago and I am happy to email to you.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:34 am

Greetings Chris,

I assume you have Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Compherensive Manual Of Abhidhamma"? If so, it's on page 155 and surrounding pages.

In skimming through it, I found more teachings that are not found in the Sutta Pitaka. Whether you wish me to provide details, page references and such, I will leave at your discretion, should such enquiry be deemed beneficial.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby cooran » Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:48 am

hanks Retro. Yes I do have the text - a commentary from only 800 or 900 years ago ~ not part of the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
I think I'll save any further discussion until Ven. Dhammanando returns. He is returning to this list, isn't he?

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Ben » Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:59 am

Yes, as far as I am aware.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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e: [email protected]..

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:21 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:49 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby cooran » Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:56 pm

Hello all,

Parts of the Abhidhamma were recited at the earlier Buddhist Councils, and, at the Third Council it became fixed into its present form when the Katthavatthu was added.
Guide Through the Abdhidhamma Pitaka, by Nyanatiloka Mahathera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983), p xi.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:25 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:21 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Ben » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:22 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:23 pm

Greetings Ben,

In that "more to follow", can you include what Bhikkhu Bodhi says in the intro to SN?

If not, I'll try to get around to it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Ben » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:29 pm

Hi Paul
Yes, I will endeavour to transcribe sections from the introduction to CMA though I am about to go to work and work is crazy this week.
If I get round to it, I'll also include relevent sections from the intro to the SN, and if I can find it, quotes from Nyantiponika Thera in Abhdihamma Studies.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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retrofuturist
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:34 pm

No worries Ben. Actually it turns out it wasn't the intro to SN I was thinking of, though it possibly gives a clue on pages 33/34 as to the "seeds" referred to above.

I would type it now, but I'm off to plant trees down Werribee Gorge / Pentland Hills way for my "Community Leave Day" at work.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Ben » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:17 am

I hope its a nice day out for you Paul. Its clouding over here and I am hoping its going to rain and force the cancellation of an event that will put some considerable work pressure on me over the next 48 hours.

I'll have a look in the intro to the SN anyway, though I may not get around to it for a couple of days.

What I failed to add in my earlier post is that the material that Bhikkhu Bodhi and Nyanaponika Thera provide should give pause for thought for those on all sides of the discussion.
Kind regardds

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Dmytro » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:52 am



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retrofuturist
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:18 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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retrofuturist
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:36 am

Greetings,

A couple of similarly themed discussions from the chat archives of the Internet!

The Place of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, Any real need for controversy? (E-Sangha)
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... opic=26053

The history of Abhidhamma Pitaka (Web Sangha)
http://www.websangha.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=236

Certainly an interesting range of diverse and well-considered options in those topics! A few familiar faces too...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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retrofuturist
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:06 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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