MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

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vinasp
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Sentence 8.

"And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen."

Now, this could be talking about these five things which have just arisen.
The form-mental-object is dependently arisen, and so is the consciousness which arises based on the object (the state of mind). The state-of-mind arising based on an object is called 'contact.' The feeling, perception and volition arise within this state-of-mind. So all five are dependently arisen.

Dependent Origination.

If, as I do, you take the last two items to be in the future, then these are the five aggregates subject to clinging, in the future. The previous six items are the five aggregates subject to clinging in the present, and mental-volition based on them.

When the six bases cease, then the five aggregates subject to clinging cease.
This is called 'nibbana with residue' or the state of a non-returner.

If ignorance ceases then both the five aggregates and the five aggregates subject to clinging cease. This is nibbana without residue - full enlightenment.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Sentence 9. - "The desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding based
on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering" (342).

Bhikkhu Bodhi's note 342 explains that the four terms 'desire' etc are synonyms for craving.

Let's simplify it:

9a. The desire based on these five aggregates subject to clinging is the origin of suffering.

(i) The desire based on these five presently arisen things is the origin of suffering.

But suffering is the five aggregates subject to clinging, so:

(ii) The desire based on these five presently arisen things is the origin of
the next set of five arisen things.

My interpretation: The presently arisen (apparent) self is the 'base' of the
desire for a future (apparent) self. These five presently arisen things are
seen as self. The desire for a future self is a desire for these five things
in the future.

We observe that this sentence says 'based on' while the next sentence says 'desire for.'

NOTE:

I ran into a problem here with the interpretation of 'aggregate' as 'mass,' look at what it leads to:

(x) The desire based on these five masses of things clung to, is the origin of suffering.

This does not make any sense, so I switched to 'presently arisen things.'

My thoughts: Each arisen state of mind is suffering, but not the mass of suffering. That refers to the series of future states of mind of the same sort.
It's the same with the aggregates. The presently arisen set is present suffering, the series of future sets is future suffering.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Sentence 10. - "The removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for these
five aggregates affected by clinging is the cessation of suffering.'

Simplifying again:

10a. The removal of desire for these five aggregates subject to clinging is the cessation of suffering.

(i) The removal of desire for these (future) five arisen things is the cessation of suffering.

Is there a grammatical problem here, 'these' suggests the presently arisen five things, we would say 'those' for the future set?

This is the removal of all craving for future self-existence (bhava-tanha), which is the vanishing of the apparent self, the completion of the noble eightfold path.

It seems that removing (in the present) the craving for a future self breaks the whole cycle of renewed existence.

Sentence 11. - "At that point too, friends, much has been done by that bhikkhu.(343)"

Bhikkhu Bodhi's note 343 explains that three of the four noble truths are explicitly shown in this passage, the fourth is implicit.

Regards, Vincent.
culaavuso
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by culaavuso »

vinasp wrote: When the six bases cease, then the five aggregates subject to clinging cease.
This is called 'nibbana with residue' or the state of a non-returner.

If ignorance ceases then both the five aggregates and the five aggregates subject to clinging cease. This is nibbana without residue - full enlightenment.
It might be helpful to contrast this view with Itivuttaka 112 which describes nibbana without residue as happening after the Tathāgata's teaching career, while his unsurpassed awakening happens before.
Iti 112: Loka Sutta wrote: Yañca, bhikkhave, rattiṃ tathāgato anuttaraṃ sammāsambodhiṃ abhisam­buj­jhati, yañca rattiṃ anupādisesāya nibbānadhātuyā parinibbāyati, yaṃ etasmiṃ antare bhāsati lapati niddisati, sabbaṃ taṃ tatheva hoti no aññathā, tasmā tathāgatoti vuccati.

From the night the Tathagata fully awakens to the unsurpassed Right Self-awakening to the night he is totally unbound in the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining, whatever the Tathagata has said, spoken, explained is just so (tatha) and not otherwise. Thus he is called the Tathagata.
vinasp
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Lets look at Ven. Thanissaro's translation. [my comments are in square brackets]

"The form of what has thus come into being is gathered under the form clinging-aggregate.

[One might as well just say: is classed as 'clinging form.']

The feeling of what has thus come into being is gathered under the feeling clinging-aggregate.

[... is classed as 'clinging feeling.']

The perception of what has thus come into being is gathered under the perception clinging-aggregate. The fabrications of what has thus come into being are gathered under the fabrication clinging-aggregate. The consciousness of what has thus come into being is gathered under the consciousness clinging-aggregate.

One discerns, 'This, it seems, is how there is the gathering, meeting, & convergence of these five clinging-aggregates.

[This ...is how there is the arising together and classification as 'clinging' of these five things.]

Now, the Blessed One has said, "Whoever sees dependent co-arising sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees dependent co-arising."[4]

And these things — the five clinging-aggregates — are dependently co-arisen.[5]

[ and these five things, classified as clinging, are dependently arisen.]

Any desire, embracing, grasping, & holding-on to these five clinging-aggregates is the origination of stress.

[BB's 'based on' is here replaced by 'to'. Whose translation is correct?]
[ if they are synonyms for craving - 'any craving to these ..' makes no sense.]

Any subduing of desire & passion, any abandoning of desire & passion for these five clinging-aggregates is the cessation of stress.' [6]

[ abandoning desire for these presently arisen five things?]

And even to this extent, friends, the monk has accomplished a great deal.

---------------------------- End of Citation ----------------------

Pali students please share your thoughts.

Regards, Vincent.
Spiny Norman
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by Spiny Norman »

vinasp wrote: The structure would be:

1. What is actually seen.
2.Adding the five aggregates (skip the details).
3. Constructing the mental-object ('eye' plus 'visible form')
4. Arising of eye consciousness (state of mind based on the mental object)
5. Contact.
6. Feeling, perception and volition arising.
7. Generation of craving.
8. Clinging.
9. Existence.
I'm not sure about this sequence, Vincent. It seems to me that the mental object arises in dependence on 5.Contact, and that state of mind then arises in dependence on the associated feeling and perception. So for example if I'm looking at the sea, there arises a perception of "sea" which leads to a mental object - effectively my idea of "sea", which is informed partly by past experience of "sea". In my case there will be a pleasant mental feeling associated with this perception and mental object. If the wind is blowing there will also be bodily feeling which could be pleasant or unpleasant depending on the time of year. ;)
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by mikenz66 »

Yes, see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.
:anjali:
Mike
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by Spiny Norman »

mikenz66 wrote:Yes, see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.
:anjali:
Mike
Good quote, though from an experiential point of view I still struggle with the order here, ie perception following feeling. It feels more like the perception happens first, followed by a feeling based on that perception. So for example if I have a pleasant mental feeling associated with looking at the sea, doesn't the perception of "sea" come first? Or to put it another way, how can a feeling arise from a sense-object if there is no initial recognition of that sense-object?
Unfortunately the suttas don't say much about what perception ( sanna ) actually involves, beyond the example of say recognising a colour. :thinking:
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mikenz66
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by mikenz66 »

I find it's usually fuzzy, but experientially, on a retreat, with enough build up of concentration and mindfulness I do find that feeling comes before perception.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by Spiny Norman »

mikenz66 wrote:I find it's usually fuzzy, but experientially, on a retreat, with enough build up of concentration and mindfulness I do find that feeling comes before perception.
Interesting to hear that Mike. I'll pay closer attention. ;)
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vinasp
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

MN 18 said:-"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact."

But MN 28.27 introduces a third factor which is required before eye-consciousness can arise:

"If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range, but there is no corresponding [conscious] engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding class of consciousness." [BB, MLDB, MN 28]

Is this a contradiction in the teachings?

Or is there an explanation for this?

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by barcsimalsi »

Spiny Norman wrote: It feels more like the perception happens first, followed by a feeling based on that perception. So for example if I have a pleasant mental feeling associated with looking at the sea, doesn't the perception of "sea" come first? Or to put it another way, how can a feeling arise from a sense-object if there is no initial recognition of that sense-object?
Unfortunately the suttas don't say much about what perception ( sanna ) actually involves, beyond the example of say recognising a colour. :thinking:
Maybe you can try to reflect the moment when your naughty classmate place a beautiful nail on your chair waiting for you to sit, if not because of feeling why did people immediately lift up their butt when the mind can barely recognize anything.

Yet if you are referring to inner feelings which arise due to specific mental state then one needs to consider the process of chemical reaction which may take sometime except for neutral feelings.
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by daverupa »

There's no adding of aggregates; any experience is already comprised of them, with certain exceptions for certain aggregates at certain times (jhana, formless states, etc.). And, without any aggregates, there is no experiencing. The 'something added' is upadana, not the aggregate itself.

Perceives and feels are conjoined with consciousness-of, as I experience it, such that I can make it seem as though one or the other came first by a hairs-breadth simply because that's the one I choose to parse first with awareness. But they're co-emergent, those three, at any sense gate.

Then comes thinks about, which manas is up to, and then the problematic 'objectifies and proliferates', there being a suitable basis.

With respect to the kamaguna, conscious engagement is necessary prior to there being talk of "aware of". For example, if someone says my name but I don't hear them, there was no conscious engagement and therefore no contact at the ear sense sphere. Suddenly hearing my name means that there was conscious engagement, whereupon we can now speak of contact and its concomitant consciousness-of.

Presumably, unconscious & conscious processes at manas are also amenable to this sort of description.

At any time, a snapshot of one's state of mind and prevailing impulses is 'citta'.

---

There's no problem if you don't ossify the terms, instead remembering that experiential spectra are being described, not a pile of bricks being laid end to end.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by Unrul3r »

Spiny Norman wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Yes, see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.
:anjali:
Mike
Good quote, though from an experiential point of view I still struggle with the order here, ie perception following feeling. It feels more like the perception happens first, followed by a feeling based on that perception. So for example if I have a pleasant mental feeling associated with looking at the sea, doesn't the perception of "sea" come first? Or to put it another way, how can a feeling arise from a sense-object if there is no initial recognition of that sense-object?
Unfortunately the suttas don't say much about what perception ( sanna ) actually involves, beyond the example of say recognising a colour. :thinking:
Those are good questions, Spiny. I also had them for quite a long time. There are some good answers here already, but I'll add one more.

Here's the answer I found: The phenomenon that you are describing is entering the emotional stage (saṅkhāra), where you feel big or small emotions after perceiving an object incorrectly. For example, perceiving danger were there is none, will generate fear. Or, from your example, perceiving the sea as beautiful, will generate a pleasant mental feeling.

On the other hand, the vedanā is instantaneous from contact, you don't even need to recognize (That's why in the suttas it is mentioned a lot of times as [organ]samphassajā vedanā). If you have your eyes functioning, there is a world around you & are conscious of sight, you are feeling something through the eyes. For example, if you enter a room with very bright light after you've been in a dark place, your eyes will hurt. Or, if you enter a room with loud noise after being in a silent space, it will hurt your ears. Or the inverse, if you enter a quiet space after being in a room with loud noise, you'll feel relief.
You don't even need to recognize the sound. But when you recognize the loud noise as unpleasant, then it can generate aversive saṅkhāras.

A good way to understand this distinction from the suttas is that: vedanā is [organ]samphassajā & saṅkhāras is [object]sañcetanā. In other words, the emotion depends on the personal perception (attasaññā) of the object, the feeling depends on the impersonal event of being conscious through the organ. If the perception is impersonal (anattasaññā), the emotion doesn't arise.

I hope this helps with that distinction.

:anjali:
vinasp
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Re: MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

This third factor is translated as 'engagement' by Bhikkhu Bodhi and by Ven. Thanissaro.

According to D.W.Evans (1992) the Pali expression means something like 'consent to sustenance.'

Sustenance suggests one of the nutriments but which one?

Whatever it is, if it is not present, then there is no arising of consciousness, which means 'no coming together of these three', which in turn means no contact.

This must create a problem for those who think that 'eye-consciousness' means seeing. Of course, there is already a word for 'seeing' in Pali, and there is no need to invent a new one.

To a native Pali speaker it would be obvious that 'eye-consciousness' does not mean seeing. It would sound strange, like I would, if I started talking about 'eye-knowing.'

Besides, consciousness is said to cease, and also the six-bases. The sankhara's are said to construct form, feeling, perception, volition and consciousness. Enlightenment is the stopping of all sankhara's, volitional constructive activities.

Regards, Vincent.
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