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The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Ben
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Ben » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:06 pm

The SN is indeed a jewel. Though my forays have been very brief as I am still wading very slowly through the Majjhima.
I think I;ve run out of time tonight to do any wholescale transcription from CMA, I think its going to be a couple of days considering my commitments...
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:28 pm


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:37 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:41 pm


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:42 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:48 pm


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:00 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:17 pm


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:25 pm

The Theravada term came shortly after the Third Council. At the time of the Third Council, the early Buddhists were called something like 'Vibhajjavadins.'

The quote from Narada (or Bhikkhu Bodhi) is the classical view. There is also a 'Modern Theravada' view which focuses on the earliest teachings, such as the five Nikayas and the Patimokkha of the Vinaya. Just as in Asian countries there are many different forms of Theravada and some nations even have their own version of the Tipitaka (Burma) and their own patriarch, in many modern nations, we have been mostly arranged by the 'classical' view you quoted above and the 'modern Theravada' which may not see the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries as Buddhavacana.

I do not support litmus tests on what makes a Theravadin. It is very hard to get two people, even if they are married to agree on everything, I can't imagine getting all Theravadins to agree on the Abhidhamma and other issues. :tongue:
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:30 pm

Hi, I’m sorry, I’m a little confused now as your point of view seems to shift - are you then saying that Modern Theravada shares the view of Mahasamghikas regarding abhidhamma ? In the previous post you said that they didn’t want abhidhamma as canonical either.

And I don’t yet understand how is your view of abhidhamma authorship different from Sarvastivadin view.

Anyway, I guess the point is - why call ourselves theravadins (or modern theravadins) if our view(s) are in fact identical to those of other sects and not theravada?

I mean, the root of the problem doesn’t seem to be that we as theravadins agree or not agree – therevada position is spelled out in the katthavatthu and commentaries and doesn’t depend on us agreeing with it or not - the problem seems to be that we call ourselves theravadins, while in fact we harbor views of other sects - usually without realizing it, of course. It’s no wonder we can’t agree.

Perhaps it would be more useful for each one of us who would like to call ourselves “theravadins” to read kathavatthu and the commentaries and then honestly see for oneself – “okay, on this matter my view seems to be identical with this sect, and on this matter with this sect, etc.” I mean, why invent a new term like “modern theravada” if a “modern theravadin” in fact adheres to the same old set of views (or a combination of views) already presented by some other sect thousands of years ago? It just seems like lying to ourselves. Anyway, I'm sorry if all this sounds a bit rude, but I'm struggling with these same issues myself.

Best wishes

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:01 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:29 pm

- Peter


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:33 pm

- Peter


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:47 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:51 pm

Continuing from my point above, in modern nations where Buddhism is still new, we have been pretty much grouped into Classical and Modern Theravada. That is a far cry and far short from how Theravada is currently segmented in Asia:

from Wikipedia:

The different schools in Theravada often emphasize different aspects (or parts) of the Pali Canon and the later commentaries, or differ in the focus on (and recommended way of) practice. There are also significant differences in strictness or interpretation of the Vinaya.

* Bangladesh:
o Sangharaj Nikaya
o Mahasthabir Nikaya
* Burma:
o Thudhamma Nikaya
+ Vipassana tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw and disciples
o Shwekyin Nikaya
o Dvaya Nikaya or Dvara Nikaya (see Mendelson, Sangha and State in Burma, Cornell University Press, Ithaca, New York, 1975)
* Sri Lanka:
o Siam Nikaya
+ Waturawila (or Mahavihara Vamshika Shyamopali Vanavasa Nikaya)
o Amarapura Nikaya
+ Kanduboda (or Swejin Nikaya)
+ Tapovana (or Kalyanavamsa)
o Ramañña Nikaya
+ Galduwa (or Kalyana Yogashramaya Samsthava)
+ Delduwa
o forest nikaya
* Thailand
o Maha Nikaya
+ Dhammakaya Movement
o Thammayut Nikaya
+ Thai Forest Tradition
# Tradition of Ajahn Chah
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:58 pm

- Peter


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:03 pm

- Peter


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:04 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:07 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:29 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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