Rebirth of a Sotapanna

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Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby SarathW » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:26 am

I have read very many ocations that the Sotapanna person will be reborne less than seven times. However
Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw said as follows. Can some one clarify this for me.
"The defilements and kammas are then done away with, once and forever. The yogis who attain sotapatti stage overcome the defilements and kammas that lead to the lower worlds, and those that may cause good rebirth for more than seven lifetimes, the yogis at the sakadagami stage overcome those that may cause more than two rebirths while the yogis at the anagami stage remove those that lead to rebirth in sensual worlds. Finally, the yogi who attains arahatta stage eradicates the remaining defilements and kamma. In other words, he becomes an Arahat, the Noble one who is worthy of honour because he is wholly free from defilements."
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/mahasi-patic ... cca-06.htm
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:30 am

SarathW wrote:I have read very many ocations that the Sotapanna person will be reborne less than seven times. However
Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw said as follows. Can some one clarify this for me.
"The defilements and kammas are then done away with, once and forever. The yogis who attain sotapatti stage overcome the defilements and kammas that lead to the lower worlds, and those that may cause good rebirth for more than seven lifetimes, the yogis at the sakadagami stage overcome those that may cause more than two rebirths while the yogis at the anagami stage remove those that lead to rebirth in sensual worlds. Finally, the yogi who attains arahatta stage eradicates the remaining defilements and kamma. In other words, he becomes an Arahat, the Noble one who is worthy of honour because he is wholly free from defilements."
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/mahasi-patic ... cca-06.htm

He is saying is that a Sotapanna has purified their mind to the point where they will never do anything that would lead them to be reborn in a lower realm, or anything that would make them reborn more than seven times. The same goes for the other stages, except that they will be born even fewer times. Finally, an Arahant will never be born again because they are completely free from anything defiled.

Does that make sense?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby SarathW » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:50 am

Thank you for your clrification Lonesome. Do you know the reason or logic behind why that Sotapanna will be reborn for less than seven times?
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:35 am

Hi Sarah,

The maximum of seven rebirths can be deduced from a few Suttas, such as:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

However, as far as I know, there are no suttas that describe a particular person being reborn in the human realm, whereas there are a number of suttas describing rebirth in higher realms.

:anjali:
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:47 am

SarathW wrote:Thank you for your clrification Lonesome. Do you know the reason or logic behind why that Sotapanna will be reborn for less than seven times?

Because, when one becomes a Sotapanna, or "stream-enterer," they have entered the stream that will take them to the ocean, i. e. Nibanna. They have cleared their minds of the defilements that could possibly lead to actions that cause rebirth in Hell. With Sotapannas, it's only "a matter of time" so to speak because they have changed their minds to the point where the seeds for destructive actions just aren't there anymore.

Do you have any experience with farming? Sometimes, if soil is bad, one crop might be okay one year but terrible the next; the quality just goes up and down forever. But when you take time to really enrich the soil with fertilizer or other means, when you remove the stuff that is holding your crop back, then it's only a matter of time before a great crop arises. It might take a little work, maybe a few seasons, but once the soil is really healthy, it can't go back to being bad until a great crop is born of it. That is what Sotapannas have done; they've made the soil of their minds wholesome to the point where they can't go back until the perfect harvest - Nibbana.

Does that make sense?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby SarathW » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:28 am

Thanks Lonesome and Mike. The Sotapanna has eliminated the first three fetters and only seven more fetters to be eliminated. So I wonder whether “seven lives” is just a metaphor to show the small effort (in comparison) required to achieve the final goal.
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:29 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks Lonesome and Mike. The Sotapanna has eliminated the first three fetters and only seven more fetters to be eliminated. So I wonder whether “seven lives” is just a metaphor to show the small effort (in comparison) required to achieve the final goal.

You'll probably upset a lot of really conservative people by saying so, but I'm in agreement with you - I doubt a universal natural law keeps track of those lives.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:46 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks Lonesome and Mike. The Sotapanna has eliminated the first three fetters and only seven more fetters to be eliminated. So I wonder whether “seven lives” is just a metaphor to show the small effort (in comparison) required to achieve the final goal.

Certainly, it might well be one of those random "quite large" (and prime) numbers. There are a lot of "sevens" in the Suttas (e.g. in the Satipatthana suttahttp://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.soma.html), as I realised when trying to find a sutta specifying seven lives...

site:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka seven
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... =firefox-a

:anjali:
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby Sambodhi in Oz » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:37 pm

Dear Mike,

Lets not doubt things just because they are prime nos. more than this doubt lets put efforts for maintaining that required mindfulness for just 7 days. Mind you what Buddha means is keeping that mindfulness unbroken continuously for 7 days and intervening nights.

Metta

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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby xtracorrupt » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:28 am

SarathW wrote:I have read very many ocations that the Sotapanna person will be reborne less than seven times. However
Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw said as follows. Can some one clarify this for me.
"The defilements and kammas are then done away with, once and forever. The yogis who attain sotapatti stage overcome the defilements and kammas that lead to the lower worlds, and those that may cause good rebirth for more than seven lifetimes, the yogis at the sakadagami stage overcome those that may cause more than two rebirths while the yogis at the anagami stage remove those that lead to rebirth in sensual worlds. Finally, the yogi who attains arahatta stage eradicates the remaining defilements and kamma. In other words, he becomes an Arahat, the Noble one who is worthy of honour because he is wholly free from defilements."
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/mahasi-patic ... cca-06.htm


a sotapanna does not have to be reborn 7 times in order to attain nirvana, any sentient being can attain nirvana in any life, it all depends on the will
theres is no need for needing
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby SarathW » Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:11 am

Is this Theravada teaching?
=======
There are three types of sotapannas, depending on the number of
rebirths before they attain Arahantship and enter ibbana namely:
• Ekabiji-sotapanna = enters ibbana after one life.
• Kolamkola-sotapanna = enters ibbana after two to six lives.
• Sattakkhattu-parama-sotapanna = enters ibbana after seven
lives.


http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf/PDF_Budd ... Truths.pdf
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby culaavuso » Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:27 am

SarathW wrote:Is this Theravada teaching?
=======
There are three types of sotapannas, depending on the number of
rebirths before they attain Arahantship and enter ibbana namely:
• Ekabiji-sotapanna = enters ibbana after one life.
• Kolamkola-sotapanna = enters ibbana after two to six lives.
• Sattakkhattu-parama-sotapanna = enters ibbana after seven
lives.


AN 3.86: Sikkhā Sutta wrote:Taṃ vā pana anabhi­sam­bha­vaṃ appaṭivijjhaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā, rāgado­samohā­naṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī hoti, sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti. Taṃ vā pana anabhi­sam­bha­vaṃ appaṭivijjhaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā ekabījī hoti, ekaṃyeva mānusakaṃ bhavaṃ nibbattetvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti. Taṃ vā pana anabhi­sam­bha­vaṃ appaṭivijjhaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā kolaṅkolo hoti, dve vā tīṇi vā kulāni sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti. Taṃ vā pana anabhi­sam­bha­vaṃ appaṭivijjhaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sattak­khat­tu­paramo hoti, sattak­khat­tu­paramaṃ deve ca manusse ca sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.


"With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is one who has seven more times at most. Having transmigrated and wandered on among devas and human beings, he will put an end to stress.

"[Or] he is one going from good family to good family [i.e., rebirth in the human realm or any of the deva realms]. Having transmigrated and wandered on among two or three good families, he will put an end to stress.

"[Or] he is one with one seed. Having arisen only once more in the human realm, he will put an end to stress.

"[Or], with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, he is a once-returner who — on returning only once more to this world — will put an end to stress.
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby SarathW » Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:33 am

Thanks C
How do you separate this from once returner (Sakdagami)?
:thinking:
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby culaavuso » Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:42 am

SarathW wrote:How do you separate this from once returner (Sakdagami)?


The difference in the text is that a once returner has attenuated passion, aversion, and delusion in addition to the wasting away of the first three fetters, while the one-seeder is not described in this way.

AN 3.86: Sikkhā Sutta wrote:Taṃ vā pana anabhi­sam­bha­vaṃ appaṭivijjhaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā, rāgado­samohā­naṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī hoti, sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.

[Or], with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, he is a once-returner who — on returning only once more to this world — will put an end to stress.
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby SarathW » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:12 am

Sorry, I don't see the difference.
:juggling:
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Re: Rebirth of a Sotapanna

Postby LXNDR » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:34 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks C
How do you separate this from once returner (Sakdagami)?
:thinking:


for example

Once-returner returns into the world in general, not necessarily the human one

"[Or], with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, he is a once-returner who — on returning only once more to this world — will put an end to stress.


One-seeder returns specifically into the human realm

"[Or] he is one with one seed. Having arisen only once more in the human realm, he will put an end to stress.
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