MN 28 and the Clinging Aggregates.

[culaavuso]

So if one completes the noble eightfold path, in this life, what, in your opinion, ceases at that point in time?

Papañca.

[Spiny Norman]

What happens if a visual object meets with an intact eye and consciousness is not present?
chownah

No contact, according to the suttas.

[Unrul3r]

What happens if a visual object meets with an intact eye and consciousness is not present?
chownah

No contact, according to the suttas.

Indeed. And one doesn't even need to go by the suttas. Just look at the experience right now. One is sitting on a chair typing a post. His attention is on typing and not on the contact of his bum with the chair. So, the chair meets with his bum, but since his attention is on the typing, there is no contact.

[Spiny Norman]

Hi everyone,
It also shows that the purpose of the noble eightfold path is to bring about the cessation of the six bases.
It therefore prevents the common misunderstanding that only craving or clinging are to be eliminated.

Though this passage from MN149 confirms that the source of the problem is infatuation with the sense bases and contact, and not those things in and of themselves. It doesn't support the idea that the sense bases and contact are things to be "got rid of", rather that they are things to be properly understood.

The Blessed One said: "Not knowing, not seeing the eye as it actually is present; not knowing, not seeing forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye as they actually are present; not knowing, not seeing whatever arises conditioned through contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — as it actually is present, one is infatuated with the eye... forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye... whatever arises conditioned by contact at the eye and is experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain.

[Spiny Norman]

You did mean the five aggregates subject to clinging, and not the five aggregates?

But as per previous discussion, the suttas don't really support the idea of 2 discreet sets of aggregates. The distinguishing feature of the "clinging aggregates" is that they're subject to clinging and the taints - so if one removes the taints and clinging one is left with "plain aggregates". I think this supports the view that the goal is to remove clinging and the taints from the experience of the aggregates - it's not saying there are 2 separate sets of aggregates, one clinging and one non-clinging.

[chownah]

What happens if a visual object meets with an intact eye and consciousness is not present?
chownah

No contact, according to the suttas.

Contact is what doesn't happen. I'm wondering what does happen.
chownah

[Unrul3r]

What happens if a visual object meets with an intact eye and consciousness is not present?
chownah

No contact, according to the suttas.

Contact is what doesn't happen. I'm wondering what does happen.
chownah

Since there is no contact, the only thing that happens is that matter is decaying without awareness. The eye is decaying and so is the object but there is no awareness of it. But that decay can be noticeable when contact happens again. For example, when someone leaves their eyes open for a long time they start to dry and, if they aren't paying attention through the eyes, they don't notice it. Only afterwards do they notice that they are dry.

[barcsimalsi]

I wonder why during sleep one is easier awaken when exposed to louder sound/ harder touch than softer sound/touch?
In this case, what is the condition that pushes one's consciousness to meet the other 2 element of contact?

[Unrul3r]

I wonder why during sleep one is easier awaken when exposed to louder sound/ harder touch than softer sound/touch?
In this case, what is the condition that pushes one's consciousness to meet the other 2 element of contact?

I would say it's lack of concentration, since in sleep the mind is scattered & unaware. If concentration is strong enough so that one is in the formless spheres, contact at the sense-doors won't happen.

[Mkoll]

So if one completes the noble eightfold path, in this life, what, in your opinion, ceases at that point in time?

Papañca.

Apropos.

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

How one understands the six bases will determine how one understands contact.

The Literal Understanding.

The word 'eye' means the actual eye, the word 'form' means the actual visible object, and 'eye-consciousness' means seeing. The 'coming together' of these three is contact. In dependence on the eye and form eye-consciousness arises.

The arising of consciousness IS the coming together of these three things, so the arising of consciousness IS contact. The arising of seeing IS contact.

What is there that could be understood here? We know that seeing happens, even if we do not know what it is.

An Alternative Understanding.

The word 'eye' means the misconception of the eye, the word 'form' means the misconception of the visible form. The term 'eye-consciousness' means a state of mind in which the thing seen is known in a wrong way.

The arising of cosciousness (the state of mind) based on these misconceptions IS contact. The removal of these misconceptions would mean that no such state of mind (which knows in the wrong way) could arise.

Now contact can be seen and understood. Now contact can be reduced or eliminated. By eliminating these misconceptions contact is no longer possible.

To resist the wrong kind of knowing when it tries to arise based on these misconceptions is to resist contact. One does not give ones consent to the arising of the nutriment contact.

".. wisdom is to be developed, consciousness is to be fully understood." [BB, MLDB MN 43.6]

Regards, Vincent.

[culaavuso]

How one understands the six bases will determine how one understands contact.

Ven. Ñāṇavīra Thera's notes on contact might be helpful.

The thread Subject-Object Mode of Perception might also be helpful in this investigation.

[Spiny Norman]

Ven. Ñāṇavīra Thera's notes on contact might be helpful.

I'm not sure I really understand, but he says: "This is the foundation of the notion that I am and that things are in contact with me. This contact between me and things is phassa."
Is he saying that without self-view there is no contact ( phassa )? And if so, what happens to feeling ( vedana ), which is described in DO as arising in dependence on contact ( phassa )?

[LXNDR]

So if one completes the noble eightfold path, in this life, what, in your opinion, ceases at that point in time?

ignorance, which made one create bodily, verbal and mental fabrications on account of contact, and it's logical since in nibbana no new sankharas are created

although i'm not sure ignorance of what is meant here, could be ignorance of impermanence or of anatta

the most interesting paragraph is the last, if the insert in the square brackets accurately represents the import of the sutta's authors

Whatever brahmans & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who declare that pleasure & pain are self-made, even that is dependent on contact. Whatever brahmans & contemplatives, teachers of kamma, who declare that pleasure & pain are other-made... self-made & other-made... neither self-made nor other-made, but arise spontaneously, even that is dependent on contact.

"That any brahmans & contemplatives — teachers of kamma who declare that pleasure & pain are self-made — would be sensitive to pleasure & pain otherwise than through contact: that isn't possible. That any brahmans & contemplatives — teachers of kamma who declare that pleasure & pain are other-made... self-made & other-made... neither self-made nor other-made, but arise spontaneously — would be sensitive to pleasure & pain otherwise than through contact: that isn't possible.

"When there is a body, pleasure & pain arise internally with bodily intention as the cause; or when there is speech, pleasure & pain arise internally with verbal intention as the cause; or when there is intellect, pleasure & pain arise internally with intellectual intention as the cause.

"From ignorance as a requisite condition, then either of one's own accord one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally, or because of others one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally. Either alert one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally, or unalert one fabricates bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally. (Similarly with verbal & intellectual fabrications.)

"Now, ignorance is bound up in these things. From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance, there no longer exists [the sense of] the body on account of which that pleasure & pain internally arise. There no longer exists the speech... the intellect on account of which that pleasure & pain internally arise. There no longer exists the field, the site, the dimension, or the issue on account of which that pleasure & pain internally arise

[LXNDR]

Is he saying that without self-view there is no contact ( phassa )? And if so, what happens to feeling ( vedana ), which is described in DO as arising in dependence on contact ( phassa )?

it appears that there's no vedana at this point

take a look at the last paragraph in the excerpt from the Bhumija sutta right above