the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

its people like you that give meat eaters a bad name, devadattu ended up becoming an arahant according to another poster, don't know if that's true, any way vegetarianism is a moral decision, just not part of your morality, if you want to accumulate your karma the way you want that's your business, I suggest you stay out of other people's business like mine.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
mahat
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by mahat »

lyndon taylor wrote:its people like you that give meat eaters a bad name, devadattu ended up becoming an arahant according to another poster, don't know if that's true, any way vegetarianism is a moral decision, just not part of your morality, if you want to accumulate your karma the way you want that's your business, I suggest you stay out of other people's business like mine.
Devadutta went to Avici hell and will remain there for the entire kalpa according to Tipitika sources. I have a right to post my understanding of Dhamma as you have a right to post yours.

Peace. :anjali:
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

Likewise for you if you go around supporting the idea that the buddha would approve of our factory farming of animals for consumption. Like I said you've completely missed the point of buddhism, compassion for all beings, not compassion for your stomach. You're in a morally indefensible position, and I don't think anything you say is going to get you out of it, especially claiming its bad karma to criticize meat eating. bad karma to save animals lives, bad karma to give animals a better life, yeah right, show me where the Buddha supports that nonsense......
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Mkoll
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mkoll »

mahat wrote:Millions of animals/sentient beings are killed in farming to save crops from "pests" -- do vegetarians feel guilt about them?
Why should meat eaters feel guilty about animals being raised for actual food?
Whether you want to be guilty or not is your prerogative.
mahat wrote:It's a relationship mankind has developed due to his losing his ability to digest plant food (see Aganna Sutta when plants started defending themselves from our greed by evolving husks) real vegetarian animals can digest cellulose, humans can't which is why it's fiber for us.
Fiber is good for us. It helps prevent diseases and is part of a healthy diet. Meat has no fiber. So if all you eat is meat you will raise your risk of contracting many diseases.
mahat wrote:Beef also helped me overpower an autistic teenager twice my size and weight who scares the heck out of his teachers due to his aggressive behavior -- he can literally bite your skin off.
What did you do, hit him over the head with a T-bone steak? :lol:
mahat wrote:So meat does give you the physical strength to fight of what can only be described as "demonic forces".
:rofl:
mahat wrote:Buddha loved us all and as long as we do plenty of good deeds, and meditate everyday, he couldn't care less about what we ate as long as we are free of aversion, lust and greed... the Vinaya clearly states killing of an animal is a relatively minor offense compared to killing a human. The human birth can redeem everyone, so let's not waste it.
You're forgetting delusion. Freudian slip methinks.
mahat wrote:If vegetarians have aversion, they are not doing The Lord's teaching and are like unto Devdatta who never even became a stream enterer and will be trapped in this merciless world -- Buddha called this world the slaughter house.
How about if meat eaters have aversion? Would they be like Devadatta as well or are only vegetarians allowed that dubious honor?

~~~

Sheesh, I've read radical vegans online but this is the first radical meat eater I've ever encountered.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

what a pile of crock....

:goodpost: MKoll....

Jeesh, if this is what meat-eating does to your Mind, I'm very happy I became a vegetarian!

(I use to eat meat, now I don't. So like many others here, I have indulged in meat, and did so for quite some time, before deciing on removing it form my diet.

Never felt better.)

Frankly, I cannot be bothered to respond to your comments mahat.
I find them ludicrous, and to do so would be a waste of my time.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Aloka »

Mckoll wrote: Sheesh, I've read radical vegans online but this is the first radical meat eater I've ever encountered.
Its not the first for me, unfortunately, which is why I decided it was probably best not to waste my time having discussions with them.


:pig:
Last edited by Aloka on Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mkoll
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mkoll »

Aloka wrote:
Sheesh, I've read radical vegans online but this is the first radical meat eater I've ever encountered.
Its not the first for me, unfortunately, which is why I've decided to try not to waste my time by having discussions with them.


:pig:
What I find peculiar is that he thinks vegetarians will go to hell. I mean, that's just really out there.

:alien:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Aloka »

Mkoll wrote: What I find peculiar is that he thinks vegetarians will go to hell. I mean, that's just really out there.

:alien:
There's an intriguing short article by Master Hsuan Hua: "The Horrors of Taking Lives and Eating Meat"

http://www.shabkar.org/download/pdf/The ... g_Meat.pdf

Excerpt:

"How strange! How very strange indeed!
The grandson marries the grandmother.
The daughter is eating her mother's flesh,
And the son is beating on a drum stretched with his father's skin.
Pigs and sheep are sitting on the couch,
And the six kinds of relatives are cooking in the pots.
People have come to offer congratulations,
But I see that it is truly suffering!"
:)
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

I'm going to Tweet
"I don't eat meat,
Greens are my thing
from Fall to spring
in Winter-time
(to make things rhyme)
fewer shoots
more tubers, roots..."
If meat's your dish
I only wish
you like your meal
but really feel
I've made it clear
at least in here
that argument
is time ill-spent
and your opinion
holds no dominion.
All flesh is grass,
so up your artfully- prepared chicken cutlet and gravy.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by seeker242 »

mahat wrote: The animal is fed, protected and in turn it provides us with meat.
Most people, at least where I am from, become vegetarians because many of the animals are not protected. They are horribly mistreated and abused, and then killed. They are treated like mere property, like inanimate objects, with no concern for their sentience. With no respect whatsoever. They suffer tremendously at the hands of those farm workers.
Buddha loved us all and as long as we do plenty of good deeds, and meditate everyday, he couldn't care less about what we ate as long as we are free of aversion, lust and greed...


I would not say that is entirely true. The rules he made concerning meat being "pure in 3 respects" indicated that he did care what his monks ate. The meat that was not "pure in 3 respect" he considered to not be "karmicily pure". He only allowed meat eating in certain circumstances, not any or all circumstances. Of course, this was just for his monks.
If vegetarians have aversion, they are not doing The Lord's teaching and are like unto Devdatta who never even became a stream enterer and will be trapped in this merciless world -- Buddha called this world the slaughter house.
Well, if you think about it, aversion to the systemic abusing and killing of masses of sentient beings, could easily just be a function of compassion. And trying to help those suffering beings is not really inappropriate according to the Lords teaching.

:anjali:
Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

mahat wrote:Again, there is NO moral question for anyone who merely eats meat bought from a grocery store or a restaurant.
But the intention of the 3-fold rule seems to be avoiding unecessary slaughter of animals, and the spirit of the rule seems to reflect the development of Right Intention.
So while I don't see a problem with eating meat that has already been bought / prepared by somebody else, I would question the ethics of deciding to buy and prepare meat oneself, particularly when non-meat alternatives are readily available.
I've also noticed that sometimes people try to rationalise meat eating because they're actually quite attached to it and don't want to give it up.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Spiny Norman wrote:.....
I've also noticed that sometimes people try to rationalise meat eating because they're actually quite attached to it and don't want to give it up.
I think that's probably what people do with ANYTHING they are reluctant to stop doing, be it from eating meat, to having extra-marital sex....and any questionable behaviour in between....
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
mahat
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by mahat »

Again, yes anyone with wrong view will go to hell and those who eat any food in lust and/or greed as well. I don't eat meat for taste, I eat it for nutrition and my concern is human nutrition. I have raised children, they are finicky as heck. To deny them variety in food so they don't suffer from malnutrition is common sense. Yet vegetarians don't see this issue, they see only the animals. They follow vegetarianism not Buddhism.

Wrong view of vegetarians, kill the human save the animal!

1) they certainly give this impression-- don't care for our fellow human beings and their nutritional well being. India was probably the great case in point, nonvegetarian diets were considered sin (by foolish Buddhists who fell into the trap of Jains and Brahmins) and this led to the largest scale malnutrition, anemia and destruction of human potential in history.

There have been several cases of vegans being responsible for killing their baby through malnutrition! Vegans were arrested.

Vegetarians are responsible for any human beings, women, children etc. who are severely malnourished due to vegetarians lacking compassion for humans.

In Buddhism, the Vinaya states the sin for killing animals and plants requires confession, for killing a human - expulsion from the Sangha.

2) there is more proof that it is true that vegetarians lack sympathy for humans. Hitler is an example, he was a vegetarian.

In a survey in India to determine male to female sex ratio, I believe in the last census of India, Jains who would never think of eating a hamburger or even a chicken of egg, had no problem killing their human female babies. Jains in India are some of the worst offenders of female foetocide and have a highly skewed gender ratio.

It might be a mere coincidence that Female infanticide has the highest prevalence in states which has the largest number of vegetarians (Gujurat, Punjab), the Jains make this quite believable.

So, vegetarians -- if I may ask, what is your stand on human nutrition and health? Should those propagating vegetarian diets
And other limited diets be held responsible if any human being dies due to malnutrition or child becomes malnourished due to their foolishness?

Vegetarians are being blamed in India big time.

Vegetarians always take the Buddha's teachings out of context.
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

mahat wrote:.....
There have been several cases of vegans being responsible for killing their baby through malnutrition! Vegans were arrested.
Please give verifiable links.
Also, give links to balance view that some meat-eaters were also responsible for ill-health of children.
It's only fair...

Like this one

or this one.

Vegetarians are responsible for any human beings, women, children etc. who are severely malnourished due to vegetarians lacking compassion for humans.
Verifiable source of this information, please.
....2) there is more proof that it is true that vegetarians lack sympathy for humans. Hitler is an example, he was a vegetarian.
Hitler was also a male Austrian and Catholic.
So it must follow by your blinding logic, that all Austrian Male Catholics also lack sympathy for humans.
Obviously.
In a survey in India to determine male to female sex ratio, I believe in the last census of India, Jains who would never think of eating a hamburger or even a chicken of egg, had no problem killing their human female babies. Jains in India are some of the worst offenders of female foetocide and have a highly skewed gender ratio.It might be a mere coincidence that Female infanticide has the highest prevalence in states which has the largest number of vegetarians (Gujurat, Punjab), the Jains make this quite believable.
It's Bovine Scatology, that's what it is.
This is nothing to do with vegetarianism, but everything to do with the despicable prejudice that that particular society has against female babies. The same happened in China.
China is largely omnivorous. They eat meat, and kill their baby girls.

I've encountered some really dreadful :strawman: strawman arguments but that one really takes the biscuit...


So, vegetarians -- if I may ask, what is your stand on human nutrition and health? Should those propagating vegetarian diets
And other limited diets be held responsible if any human being dies due to malnutrition or child becomes malnourished due to their foolishness
?
In view of the links I posted above, any form of 'nutritional neglect' is a punishable offence.

I say it as I find it:
Your views are prejudiced, skewed and biased.
Your arguments shallow and frankly of little worth because they can be shot to pieces.
Any form of diet, unskillfully administered, is harmful.
Be it vegetarian, omnivorous or carnivorous.
Vegetarians always take the Buddha's teachings out of context.
Something which of course you would never do, or have done. (sarcasm).
I won't even say that it's the pot calling the kettle black. Nobody here has done this, but your words have twisted all intention, and are biased to the point of lunacy.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Aloka »

mahat wrote: Vegetarians always take the Buddha's teachings out of context.
Why thank you, kind sir !


:rofl:


.
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