The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:31 am

TheDhamma wrote:The Mahasamghikas and Sarvastivadins no longer exist. We only have the Theravada from the early Buddhist schools. You are taking one snippet of their beliefs and assuming that everything else is also in agreement.

Hi, sure, these schools are gone, but as it seems evident, the view(s) they put forward so long ago keep popping up. Isn’t it the same with Brahmajala sutta for example? We might call ourselves this or that, but in the end, it goes down to the views that we hold at the moment, and Buddhism, and Theravada in particular have set very clear standards on what views are right (i.e. leading to release in their experience) and which views are not. If I recall correctly, one of the reasons kathavatthu was kept open for three councils was so that all the possible heretical views could be collected and refuted for the benefit of the future generations.

TheDhamma wrote:And you want the Kathavatthu to be read, understood, and accepted by all?

Well, it’s not an issue of what I want, but of each person being honest to himself first. I don’t see how one can honestly criticise “classical theravda” without first becoming an expert in it, and that would require understanding kathavatthu and at least the major atthakathas I guess.

I’m sorry if I’m coming across as personal – it’s just that I consider you, retro, Ben, Peter, cooran, robertk and Ven.Dhammanando the most learned people in Theravada that I’ve come accorss on E-sangha and Dhammawheel. I mean, I look up to you guys, as I'm sure many others here do as well, so when one of you says something that seems to be at odds with Theravada, it seems important.

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:39 am

Peter wrote:The problem is when you or I start attributing views to Theravada that are wrongly attributed.

The problem in my view is when I say "I am Theravadin. I believe X." and then X is not in fact Theravada and then someone reads my statement and comes to the conclusion "Theravada teaches X."

Very well put.

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:49 am

pt1 wrote:Well, it’s not an issue of what I want, but of each person being honest to himself first. I don’t see how one can honestly criticise “classical theravda” without first becoming an expert in it, and that would require understanding kathavatthu and at least the major atthakathas I guess.

I’m sorry if I’m coming across as personal – it’s just that I consider you, retro, Ben, Peter, cooran, robertk and Ven.Dhammanando the most learned people in Theravada that I’ve come accorss on E-sangha and Dhammawheel. I mean, I look up to you guys, as I'm sure many others here do as well, so when one of you says something that seems to be at odds with Theravada, it seems important.


Hi pt,

I notice that many of your past posts were also regarding the Abhidhamma and the Pali language, so you sound pretty well-read yourself. ;)

I have read the Abhidhamma Pitaka and believe it or not, I like it! I am just not sure about the authorship and if it is Buddhavacana. But I do know it is useful. As retro mentioned earlier, the Suttas go into some "abhidhammic" type of teachings of analysis, it is just that the Abhidhamma takes it another step further, analyzing to a greater detail -- nothing wrong with that.

I study the Pali Canon, but also read scholarly texts and reports. I also notice that the Abhidhamma was not recited at the First Council and I have not seen an adequate explanation as to why up to this point. But I am open-minded and will happily hear any evidence or good reason why the Abhidhamma was not recited at the First Council and apparently not at the Second Council either.

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:02 am

TheDhamma wrote:I have read the Abhidhamma Pitaka and believe it or not, I like it!


I should clarify: I have read all of the books available in English translation of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. The Yamaka (6th book) has not been translated to English yet. But from what I understand it is mostly repetition of what is already in the other books. My Pali is still not so good and certainly not good enough to read the Pali version alone without the English nearby. Another consolation, Mrs. Rhys Davids, has called it the "ten valleys of dry bones." :tongue:

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:21 am

Hi, thanks for your patience.

TheDhamma wrote:I also notice that the Abhidhamma was not recited at the First Council and I have not seen an adequate explanation as to why up to this point. But I am open-minded and will happily hear any evidence or good reason why the Abhidhamma was not recited at the First Council and apparently not at the Second Council either.


Good point. I'll join then in trying to find some info on this, though I'm afraid that if there's any, it will be coming from the commentaries, so it'll again take us to the old issue of whether we trust the Theras were telling the truth or not.

TheDhamma wrote:The Yamaka (6th book) has not been translated to English yet.


Chew has lectures on Yamaka on his blog:
http://saccayamaka.blogspot.com/
There are many other useful lectures by U Silananda on Chew's blog - on ACM, patthana, visuddhimagga, etc, if you're interested.

Best wishes

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Ben » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:29 am

Hi Paul
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ben,

In terms of tackling the Nikayas in their whole, I actually started with the Samyutta Nikaya, primarily on account of the fact that scholars who have undertaken textual analysis and cross-canon studies (such as Ajahn Sujato) tend to agree that, overall, the Samyutta Nikaya represents the earliest stratum of the Buddha's teaching. To me that made it a logical place to start.

For me, the Majjima was more accessible price-wise (Bodhi/Narada ed) and had some foundation suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta and others that I wanted to explore. It was also made more accessbile a few years ago with the provision of Ven Bodhi's mp3 lecture series.
What I have found is that every time I open up the Nikayas whether it is the Majjhima or the Samyutta, and regardless if I am reading a sutta for the first time or the hundredth time, its like the opening of a rose and something incredibly profound and subtle just falls neatly into place. Its breathtaking.

retrofuturist wrote:It's also interesting to note that because suttas deal with "abhidhammic" topics such as six sense bases, five aggregates, dependent origination and so on, they're certainly not just "conventional" (pannati) teachings... a charge often laid upon the Sutta Pitaka.

As you probably suspect, I have great confidence that the Abhidhamma has canonical authenticity. Having said that, I would never relegate the Sutta Pitaka as 'conventional' when compared to the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
Kind regards

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:07 am

Greetings Ben,

Ben wrote:What I have found is that every time I open up the Nikayas whether it is the Majjhima or the Samyutta, and regardless if I am reading a sutta for the first time or the hundredth time, its like the opening of a rose and something incredibly profound and subtle just falls neatly into place. Its breathtaking.


Yes, and the internal consistency of such a vast volume of work, is quite staggering. This is one of its features which gives me strong faith that those who transmitted the suttas orally did a very fine job indeed.

Ben wrote:I would never relegate the Sutta Pitaka as 'conventional' when compared to the Abhidhamma Pitaka.

I'm pleased to hear it... from my experience, this allegation usually only comes from those who consider the Abhidhamma Pitaka to be superior to the Sutta Pitaka, rather than those who take them to be equally or comparably important.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:23 pm

TheDhamma wrote:I also notice that the Abhidhamma was not recited at the First Council and I have not seen an adequate explanation as to why up to this point. But I am open-minded and will happily hear any evidence or good reason why the Abhidhamma was not recited at the First Council and apparently not at the Second Council either.

Hi, I came accross a great thread on robertk’s forum regarding the origin of abhidhamma and the commentaries. It’s long but worth the read if there’s interest in the topic, there are many good points:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=4

My overall impression is that it seems not just the abdhidhamma but the commentaries as well were recited at the first council (!) with none other than Mahakassapa being in charge of them (while Ananda was responsible for the suttas, and Upali for the vinaya). I’ll just reproduce a few quick quotes here (the first post of the thread by robertk is quite good, more indepth posts by Sarah are around the middle of the thread, and Scott’s posts by the end of the thread are also a good summary):

Firstly, Theravada sources - excerpts from Athasallini (commentary to Dhammasangani):
The ancient commentary therof was sang By the First council, Mahakassapa Their leader, and later again by seers, Mahinda brought it to the peerless isle, Ceylon,.."

Which is the Khuddaka Nikaya? The whole of the Vinaya-pitaka, Abhidhamma pitaka and the fifteen divisions excluding the four nikayas" p35 "thus as rehearsed at the [first]council the Abhidhamma is a Pitaka by Pitaka classification, khuddaka -nikaya by Nikaya clasification, veyyakarana by part-classification and constitues two or three thousand units of text by classification of textual units"
...
The textual order of the Abhidhamma originated with Sariputta; the numerical series in the Great Book was also determined by him. In this way the elder, without spoiling the unique doctrine, laid down the numerical series in order to make it easy to learn, remember, study and teach the Law. Such being the case, was the elder the very first to understand the Abhidhamma? Nay, it was the supreme Buddha who first understood the Abhidhamma...."


Secondly, accounts from Tibetan and Chinese sources regarding the first council, if you’re looking for a confirmation outside of Theravada tradition – I understand this quote comes from “Geiger’s introduction to his translation of the 'Mahavamsa' (PTS)”:

"Among the Northern Buddhist sources dealing with the first Council I mention the Mahavastu. Here, in agreement with the southern tradition Kasyapa is given as the originator of the coucil, the number of the bhiksus taking part is stated to be 500 and the place the aptaparna grotto near Rajagrha.

"There is, besides, an account in the second volume of the Dulva, the Tibetan Vinaya of the Sarvastivadin sect. The fixing of the canon took place, according to this source, in the following order: 1) Dharma, by Ananda; 2)Vinaya, by Upali; 3)Matrka (i.e.Abhidarma) by Mahakasyapa himself.....

"Fa-hian and Hiuen-thsang also mention the First Council. The former gives the number of the bhiksus a 500, the latter as 1,000; the former speaks in a general way of ‘a collection of sacred books’, the latter expressly mentions also the redaction of the Abhidharma by Mahakasyapa."


Also from robertk’s forum, an interesting comment by Ven.Dhammanando on whether the commentaries originated from the first council:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index. ... wtopic=273

Does this help?

Best wishes

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:15 pm

Hi,
And just to briefly address retro’s points about mind-moments sequence, heart-base and rebirth-linking consciousness being in the abhidhamma but not in the suttas.

I haven’t come across anything on rebirth-linking consciousness yet, but on the mind-moments sequence and heart-base - the case seems to be like Dmytro said – they seem to have been mentioned in written records at the time of abhidhmmatha sangaha (I’m no expert to say whether they were implied in the seven abhidhamma books or not).

In particular, here’s a bit on heart-base from Nina van Gorkom’s book on physical phenomena, chapter 5:

The ruupa which is the heart-base has not been classified as such in the
"Dhammasanga.nii", but it is referred to as "this ruupa" in the "Book of
Conditional Relations" (Pa.t.thaana), the Seventh Book of the Abhidhamma. In the
section on "Dependance Condition" (Part II, Analytical Exposition of Conditions)
it is said that dependant on the five sense-bases the five sense-cognitions
arise and that dependant on "this matter" mind-element and
mind-consciousness-element arise. "This matter" is the ruupa which is the
heart-base; the mind-element and mind-consciousness-element comprise all cittas
other than the five sense-cognitions. [Note 4] The sense-cognitions of seeing,
etc. have the appropriate sense-base as physical base, and all other cittas have
the heart-base as physical base.

The "Visuddhimagga" (XIV, 60) gives the following definition of the heart-base.
[Note 5]

"The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the (material) support for the
mind-element and for the mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to support
them. It is manifested as the carrying of them.... "

The "Visuddhimagga" (VIII, 111,112) states that the heart-base is to be found
inside the heart. It is of no use to speculate where exactly the heart-base is.
It is sufficient to know that there is a ruupa which is base for all cittas
other than the sense-cognitions. We may not experience the heart-base as such,
but if there would be no heart-base we could not think at this moment, we could
not know which objects we are experiencing, we could not feel happy or unhappy.
In the planes of existence where there are naama and ruupa all cittas must have
a physical base, they cannot arise outside the body. When we, for example, are
angry, cittas rooted in aversion arise and these originate at the heart-base.

[Note 4] Mind-element are the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness and the
two types of receiving-consciousness, which are kusala vipaaka and akusala
vipaaka. Mind-consciousness-element are all cittas other than the
sense-cognitions and mind-element.

[Note 5] The Atthasaalinii does not classify the heart-base separately, but it
mentions the "basis-decad", a group of ten ruupas including the heart-base (
Book II, Ch III, 316). As I shall explain later on, from the first moment of our
life kamma produces three decads, groups of ten ruupas: the bodysense-decad, the
sex-decad and the heart-base-decad.


There's also a related thread on robertk's forum:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=40

It's interesting, I also recall something about Pa Auk's students being able to discern the heart-base through insight (can't remember if it was also mentioned in his Knowing and seeing book so that I can quote it here), so I don't know what to conclude - maybe these 3 subjects that retro mentions weren't discussed in the suttas nor original abhidhamma, but that doesn't necessarily make them false. Like Ven.Dhammando suggested in the other thread - maybe the Buddha felt there really was no need to include everything in the suttas. So it seems kind of natural that whatever was not in the suttas should come to us through commentaries, though some commentaries even ended up in the suttas in the end, as Sarah mentions in that long thread on abhidhamma origins on robertk's forum.

Best wishes

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:46 pm

pt1 wrote:
Does this help?


Hi pt,

Thanks, lots of information there. I will go through it when I get the chance. At first glance it looks like the case for the recitation from the First Council is only from the later commentaries. Some of the commentaries were written as early as 250 BC, but most were written several hundred years after the Buddha's parinibbana. From what I understand some commentaries go to as far as the 9th century AD or even later?

During that time there were several schisms and disagreements, so I am not saying they are wrong, but the further removed we are from the Buddha's time, the further we tend to get from the true Dhamma.

From what I understand, there is no account of Abhidhamma recitation at the First Council and that all accounts for the recitation at the First Council are from commentaries and sub-commentaries, written several hundreds of years after the fact. But I will still definitely check out those discussions to get better educated on this.

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:03 pm

Good information in those links and it appears that all references to the story of the Buddha ascending to heaven to teach Abhidhamma and for the Abhidhamma being recited before the Third council are also from the commentaries.

Here is a blog entry from Ven. Dhammika on this subject:

http://sdhammika.blogspot.com/search?q=abhidhamma

Note that the story / legend is not in the Suttas, but it is in the later commentaries.

In my next post I will present some summaries and conclusions (from my opinion).

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:06 pm

Based on the discussions here so far, I have created a new DhammaWiki page which is still evolving, but here it is so far:

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... ma_origins

Some summaries and conclusion (so far):

Arguments that it may not be Buddhavacana include:

* 1. The Abhidhamma was not recited at the First Buddhist council.
* 2. The Abhidhamma was not recited at the Second Buddhist council and it was not until the Third Buddhist council before it was made official.
* 3. The story of the Buddha ascending to heaven it is not in the Suttas.
* 4. The story of the Buddha ascending to heaven is not even in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, but rather in later commentaries.
* 5. It is not mentioned as one of the nine branches of the teachings (navanga, AN, II.103).
* 6. It contains information and a style not found in the Suttas and Vinaya.

Of the above arguments, number 6 is probably the weakest, because if it did not contain new information, what would be the use of it? If it just repeated what is already in the Suttas, we would have the three baskets of Suttas, Vinaya, and re-printing of the Suttas. So it is natural to expect the information to be different.

Arguments that it may be Buddhavacana include:

* 1. The term Abhidhamma is mentioned in the Suttas at various places.
* 2. It has the stamp of single mind.
* 3. Who but the Buddha could have fathomed the Abhidhamma.
* 4. There would have had to be a lengthy plot involving hundreds of monks actively lying and claiming that it was the Buddha Dhamma when it wasn't - and that is heavy kamma. I don't get that feeling about the ancient monks and nuns of Theravada. It is of course immaterial who taught it if we can apply it and see its truths.
* 5. The commentaries show that the Abhidhamma was recited at the First council and confirm the story of Buddha ascending to heaven to teach the Abhidhamma.
(from: RobertK, Abhidhamma.org)

Of the above arguments, from a scholarly and historical position, number 5 is probably weakest because it utilizing data hundreds of years after the fact to confirm events which are not recorded from those events.

In spite of the many arguments for and against the Abhidhamma as Buddhavacana or not, we can use Theravada Saddha (Faith) and personally study and test the principles and see if they are beneficial and match and are compatible with the Dhamma.

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:15 pm

Greetings TheDhamma,

Nice summary... both here and at the wiki page you created.

If you wanted even more arguments to list, I think there may well have been more in those E-Sangha and WebSangha topics referenced above.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:23 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Nice summary... both here and at the wiki page you created.
If you wanted even more arguments to list, I think there may well have been more in those E-Sangha and WebSangha topics referenced above.


Thanks.

Yes, there are still a lot more good points out there -- on both sides.

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:48 pm

TheDhamma wrote:In spite of the many arguments for and against the Abhidhamma as Buddhavacana or not, we can use Theravada Saddha (Faith) and personally study and test the principles and see if they are beneficial and match and are compatible with the Dhamma.


Hi Dhamma,
maybe it would help to clarify what Buddhavacana is?
is it words of the Buddha, or is it words of Dhamma from an enlightened being, or simply words of Dhamma from anyone (as in what is said, taught etc is Dhamma but the person may or may not be enlightened)?

from Wikipedia
Buddhavacana, from Pali means "the Word of the Buddha". It refers to the original sayings of the Buddha but is sometimes used to simply refer to any sacred writing of the various Buddhist traditions. All traditions recognize as Buddhavacana texts that make no claim to being the actual words of the Buddha, such as the Theragatha and Vimalakirtinirdesa Sutra.


number 3 - Who but the Buddha could have fathomed the Abhidhamma.
maybe a Arahant?

whether the Abhidhamma is or isn't from the historical Buddha I don't think matters, whether it is Buddhavacana (in the wide sense that not all the teachings in the suttas are spoken by the Buddha) or not I think does.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:56 pm

Manapa wrote:maybe it would help to clarify what Buddhavacana is?
is it words of the Buddha, or is it words of Dhamma from an enlightened being, or simply words of Dhamma from anyone (as in what is said, taught etc is Dhamma but the person may or may not be enlightened)?


number 3 - Who but the Buddha could have fathomed the Abhidhamma.
maybe a Arahant?


whether the Abhidhamma is or isn't from the historical Buddha I don't think matters, whether it is Buddhavacana (in the wide sense that not all the teachings in the suttas are spoken by the Buddha) or not I think does.


Good points!

I am not sure, to be honest. If it just means from an enlightened being, then there probably is no dispute among Theravadins. :toast:

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:05 am

it struck me that the Dhammapada verse 'whoever sees the Dhamma sees me' (or something like that) may be talking about Buddhavacana

but

:woohoo:

I made a good point

EDIT - yes I am in one of my funny moods
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:21 am

Greetings,

I've read somewhere (could have been a forum, an article, alas I have no idea now) that what consistutes Buddhavacana may have extended from beyond the literal mouth of the Buddha over time, justified by suttas where the Buddha states that one of the monks has spoken well.. and that if he were to have explained the matter, he would have done so in the same way (apologies I cannot find a sutta link, either). If you've read a few suttas though, doubtlessly you'll have come across such words and the end of a sutta, in praise of Sariputta or someone else.

For me though, this application of Buddhavacana is a slippery slope. I'm all for the Buddha declaring he would have spoken in such a way, but once people who aren't Sammasambuddhas start declaring that the now-deceased Buddha would have spoken in such a way... then I think things start to go awry. Subtleties and profundity get missed, and the process repeats ad infinitum until what remains is not Buddhavacana by anyone's definition.

For this reason, in the interests of the preservation of the Buddha's teachings, I'd rather keep the dominion of the Buddha word exclusively in the hands of the Buddhas.

Further reading:

Liberation - Relevance of Sutta-Vinaya by Dhammavuddho Thera
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha163.htm

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Cittasanto
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:33 am

Exceptionally good point!
except for sariputta Ananda and his abilities in discernment spring to mind, as does Ehipassiko.

I think in the looser deffinitions moreso than the tighter one (in this case) the ability to see if what was or is said is Dhamma or not is an important factor to remember.
does the Abhidhamma (or anyother supposidly Buddhavacana) fit with the teachings leading to liberation or do they deviate from the path?

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

I've read somewhere (could have been a forum, an article, alas I have no idea now) that what consistutes Buddhavacana may have extended from beyond the literal mouth of the Buddha over time, justified by suttas where the Buddha states that one of the monks has spoken well.. and that if he were to have explained the matter, he would have done so in the same way (apologies I cannot find a sutta link, either). If you've read a few suttas though, doubtlessly you'll have come across such words and the end of a sutta, in praise of Sariputta or someone else.

For me though, this application of Buddhavacana is a slippery slope. I'm all for the Buddha declaring he would have spoken in such a way, but once people who aren't Sammasambuddhas start declaring that the now-deceased Buddha would have spoken in such a way... then I think things start to go awry. Subtleties and profundity get missed, and the process repeats ad infinitum until what remains is not Buddhavacana by anyone's definition.

For this reason, in the interests of the preservation of the Buddha's teachings, I'd rather keep the dominion of the Buddha word exclusively in the hands of the Buddhas.

Further reading:

Liberation - Relevance of Sutta-Vinaya by Dhammavuddho Thera
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha163.htm

Metta,
Retro. :)
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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David N. Snyder
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:35 am

retrofuturist wrote:For this reason, in the interests of the preservation of the Buddha's teachings, I'd rather keep the dominion of the Buddha word exclusively in the hands of the Buddhas.


Also, a good point!

Further reading:
Liberation - Relevance of Sutta-Vinaya by Dhammavuddho Thera
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha163.htm


From Ven. Dhammavudho's essay:

The true Dhamma is embodied in the discourses of the Buddha found in the earliest 4 Nikayas: are generally accepted by all schools of Buddhism to be the original Teachings of the Buddha, unlike other books (e.g. Mahayana Sutras, Abhidhamma, etc.) which are controversial because they contain some contradictions with the 4 Nikayas. The earliest 4 Nikayas are very consistent and contains the flavour of liberation from suffering.


I haven't read the whole essay yet, but I wonder what the contradictions are with the Abhidhamma and first 4 Nikayas?


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