YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutta? - Dhamma Wheel

Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutta?

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

mahat
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:36 pm

Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutta?

Postby mahat » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:35 am

The following has been translated in English, and I think it is incorrect:

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

Now the Pali has:

Vanijja Sutam

Satthavaṇijjā, sattavaṇijjā, maṃsavaṇijjā, majjavaṇijjā, visavaṇijjā.

-Vanijja itself means "trade" or even loosely "exchange"

So it's:

Sattha vanijja = weapons trade (exchanging ill will)

Satta vanijja = trade in beings (contradicts the Vyagpagga Sutta where Buddha clearly states you can breed cattle and other animals, so I think it means "exchanging fetters" (see satta Sutta)

Mamsa vanijja = flesh trade or prostitution -mamsa means flesh and identifies it with lust in the Silavimamsa Jataka- which in my mind immediately came to mean prostitution and certainly NOT meat which Buddha clearly allowed us to eat.

Majja vanijja = intoxicant trade - Varuni Jataka has Anathpindka's friend owning a tavern.

Visa vanijja = poison trade (ie anger, lust, aversion, greed are poisons)

Thanks for anyone who can throw light on the current English translation.

User avatar
ihrjordan
Posts: 815
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:42 am

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby ihrjordan » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:49 am

"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

LXNDR
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby LXNDR » Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:16 pm

so mahat you mean the sutta is an allegory and doesn't speak of actual types of commerce?

User avatar
martinfrank
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:55 am
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby martinfrank » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:30 pm

Christians believe that man has concluded a pact with God which somehow is a promise that if man keeps the Ten Commandments man will be fine after death. And if you don't manage there is still Divine Grace.

Lord Buddha never offered such a deal to his followers. He didn't say that if you keep Five Precepts (or Eight or Ten or 227) you'll be fine. There is no Divine Grace in Buddhism. We are responsible for our acts and will earn the fruits of our acts. There is no guarantee that if you are better than average you'll not go to hell or animal birth.

Lord Buddha recommended to abstain from unwholesome businesses:

... see the note: "satta means actually any living being." The Pali is clear "business in living beings" is not recommended. There is no word meaning "slave" in the Pali sentence (like "daasa" etc.).

Jesus instructed people not to kill. Christians believe it means not to kill people.

Lord Buddha instructed people not to deal in living beings. Some Buddhists believe it means not to deal in slaves.

Instead of discussing minimal standards, we should discuss how we can improve our chances of fairing well when we die. What if your dog too thought that better than average is good enough?
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.

mahat
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby mahat » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:18 pm


mahat
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby mahat » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:23 pm


User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 10648
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:37 pm

Image




mahat
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby mahat » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:37 pm


User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 10648
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:50 pm

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I'll stick with the venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi.
Image




mahat
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby mahat » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:52 pm

If anything requiring killing was wrong livelihood, than why wasn't farming banned too?

No. 11.

LAKKHAṆA-JĀTAKA.

Towards harvest-time in Magadha, when the crops stand thick in the fields, it is dangerous for the deer in the forests round. Anxious to kill the creatures that devour their crops, the peasants dig pitfalls, fix stakes, set stone-traps, and plant snares and other gins; so that many deer are slain.

From Access to Insight
One day, however, when Pipphali Kassapa was inspecting the fields, it happened that he saw, as if with new eyes, what he had seen so often before. He observed that when his people plowed, many birds gathered and eagerly picked the worms from the furrows. This sight, so common to a farmer, now startled him. It now struck him forcefully that what brought him his wealth, the produce of his fields, was bound up with the suffering of other living beings. His livelihood was purchased with the death of so many worms and other little creatures living in the soil. Thinking about this, he asked one of his laborers: "Who will have to bear the consequences of such an action?" — "You yourself, sir," was the answer.4

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6269
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby Mkoll » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:54 pm

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

mahat
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby mahat » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:32 am


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:47 am

Greetings,

Please, let's get back to discussion of Wrong Livelihood and the Vanijja Sutta.

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

santa100
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby santa100 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:36 am


SarathW
Posts: 8014
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby SarathW » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:55 am

This thread may some help:

What is right livelihood?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16659&start=20#p249335
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 3670
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:58 am

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

LXNDR
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby LXNDR » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:59 am


LXNDR
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby LXNDR » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:05 am


mahat
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:36 pm

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby mahat » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:34 pm


User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 10648
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Wrong Livelihood - incorrect Translation of Vanijja Sutt

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:42 pm

Image





Return to “Classical Theravāda”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 4 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine