Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by lyndon taylor »

A young british student recently went to south america and tried ayahuasca and died!! That should be warning enough.....
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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seeker242
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by seeker242 »

manas wrote:
The fifth precept forbids "strong drinks (& Intoxicants?) that lead to heedlessness". So it isn't that simple, because in this particular case (and so I've read, for quite a few other folks also), the plant ayahuasca did not lead to heedlessness, but rather to a sense of clarity and conviction.
It led to a person thinking they probably attained nibbana. To think one has attained nibbana just from drinking a psychedelic drink, to be fooled into such a wrong view, I think that qualifies as "heedless".

:anjali:
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Sam Vara
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Sam Vara »

On this topic, I like the stance taken by Ajahn Sucitto:
The methodologies for transcendence are varied: meditation,
prayer, devotion, yoga, fasting, even psychotropic drugs. In the
long run, the ones that are the most useful will be the ones that
can be integrated into daily life with the minimum amount of
dependence on external circumstances or internal ideology. Then
the method will be applicable to a wide range of people and it will
not become the source of more stressful mental activity. Such is
the spiritual alignment that the Buddha called ‘Dhamma'
http://forestsanghapublications.org/vie ... 81&ref=vec
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by philosopher »

Sam Vara wrote:On this topic, I like the stance taken by Ajahn Sucitto:
The methodologies for transcendence are varied: meditation,
prayer, devotion, yoga, fasting, even psychotropic drugs. In the
long run, the ones that are the most useful will be the ones that
can be integrated into daily life with the minimum amount of
dependence on external circumstances or internal ideology. Then
the method will be applicable to a wide range of people and it will
not become the source of more stressful mental activity. Such is
the spiritual alignment that the Buddha called ‘Dhamma'
http://forestsanghapublications.org/vie ... 81&ref=vec
:goodpost:

This has always been my perspective. There are various means; the best strategy is to choose the means that are the most sustainable in the long run and in every possible circumstance.

:anjali:
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

Viscid wrote:And it doesn't surprise me that someone who had a strong experience on Ayahuasca would have their faith in Buddhism forged or strengthened. The Three Marks and the Four Noble Truths are most evident in such violent, harrowing and transcendent moments. Even if the Ayahuasca experience isn't at all Buddhist, it can still serve to illustrate the ubiquity of impermanence, not-self and suffering. Seeing such truth first-hand would wake someone up to the knowledge that the core of Buddhism is not just cultural tradition, but brute fact.
i think this is what happened with me and acid. i had a clearly bad trip that made me think that i would die, and i vowed to become a better person; before that, i had suffered plenty but i felt there was usually some recourse. now i am more determined than ever
taking a drug thinking you will become enlightened when it is mind-altering is wrong
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

Panegalli wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
Panegalli wrote:I just want to raise the topic on ayahuasca, I know a person that has attained nibbana under its influence, maybe it would be a good discussion of on the 5th precept. What would you say about it?
I would say they didn't actually attain nibbana.

:anjali:
perhaps you are right, but I did have a very useful experience.
i hd a moment of clarity that stretched into about a month, after using adderall, marijuana and alcohol bountifully. there was a *pop*, i woke up and i shuddered at how i was perceiving the world. it felt i had access to information i hadn't had before, and i was able to interact more seamlessly with others. i'm at the point now where i don't think it was a delusion (because i'm drug-free, converted to buddhism, etc.), but the point is it wasn't sustainable. then when that state of mind wore off and i took in more stress, i had a very long period of self-harm from drug use and i physically wrecked my own body
that energy has to come from somewhere, so if you didn't product that state of mind wholesomely it won't be wholesome. there is only one path to the end of suffering and it what the buddha said
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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CedarTree
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by CedarTree »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:And that person is still in Nibbana out of its influence?
Was it even nibbana is my question lol


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ieee23
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by ieee23 »

Panegalli wrote:I just want to raise the topic on ayahuasca, I know a person that has attained nibbana under its influence, maybe it would be a good discussion of on the 5th precept. What would you say about it?

My apologies if I sound skeptical. Ancient India must have had many psychotropic drugs. If such things provided a reliable and safe short cut to those drugs would have been put to regular usage thousands of years ago.


I can't name citations, but I've been reading suttas lately where the Buddha states that such a person is free of desire, ill will, and delusion. The big test as far as your friend goes is if he stays like that over the months, years.
Whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. - MN 19
Caodemarte
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Caodemarte »

seeker242 wrote:
manas wrote:
The fifth precept forbids "strong drinks (& Intoxicants?) that lead to heedlessness". So it isn't that simple, because in this particular case (and so I've read, for quite a few other folks also), the plant ayahuasca did not lead to heedlessness, but rather to a sense of clarity and conviction.
It led to a person thinking they probably attained nibbana. To think one has attained nibbana just from drinking a psychedelic drink, to be fooled into such a wrong view, I think that qualifies as "heedless".

:anjali:
:thumbsup:
erikkaplun
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by erikkaplun »

I second Viscid.

I would add from my own experience that, especially for a person studying the Dhamma (or simply someone with a love for truth and intuition for Dhamma), Ayahuasca will lead to stream entry. i.e. a person faithfully and diligently parttaking ceremonies will eventually realize the dhamma eye and attain liberation.

the hallucinations and visions and suffering and torment is all due to intermediate stages. ayahuasca is a stress release agent (truth serum). due to strong clinging, the intermediate effects are produced. eventually, the final outcome will be complete dropping of stress and complete sobering. i.e. ayahuasca is a sobering agent. but our fears and attachments are so strong, it probably won’t work the first time, nor 2nd, at least not for all individuals.

also, the process must be self-driven. one shouldn’t view ayahuasca as a sedating drug. the person taking it must learn to faithfully and diligently drive the process. this learning is sufficiently analogous to being a monk for years.

ayahuasca is like a kamma-dhamma hyperdrive, a catalyst.

I really don’t care who believes this and who calls it BS.
the Buddha did not argue with the world. (and just because you’re a buddhist or an ordinated monk, doesn’t mean you’re not thinking like a worldling ;)
Viscid wrote: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:32 pm And it doesn't surprise me that someone who had a strong experience on Ayahuasca would have their faith in Buddhism forged or strengthened. The Three Marks and the Four Noble Truths are most evident in such violent, harrowing and transcendent moments. Even if the Ayahuasca experience isn't at all Buddhist, it can still serve to illustrate the ubiquity of impermanence, not-self and suffering. Seeing such truth first-hand would wake someone up to the knowledge that the core of Buddhism is not just cultural tradition, but brute fact.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Sam Vara »

erikkaplun wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:41 am
I would add from my own experience that, especially for a person studying the Dhamma (or simply someone with a love for truth and intuition for Dhamma), Ayahuasca will lead to stream entry.
Welcome to Dhamma Wheel, erikkaplun. :anjali:

Are you claiming that you have attained stream entry?
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mjaviem
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by mjaviem »

erikkaplun wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:41 am ...
I really don’t care who believes this and who calls it BS.
the Buddha did not argue with the world...
Did not argue. Just recommended abstaining from intoxicants that cloud the mind. Also, he explained what is right effort:
SN 45.8 B. Bodhi wrote:... “And what, bhikkhus, is right effort? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu generates desire for the nonarising of unarisen evil unwholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates desire for the abandoning of arisen evil unwholesome states…. He generates desire for the arising of unarisen wholesome states…. He generates desire for the maintenance of arisen wholesome states, for their nondecay, increase, expansion, and fulfilment by development; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. This is called right effort...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

I am going to comment that I believe some of these psychedelics such as LSD and Ayahuasca (DMT) can be enlightening agents if combined with meditation insight practices. However they can be harmful if misused also so how you use it is key.

Of interest is that they holy Soma drink of the Vedas was likely a similar brew. This is because the shrub Peganum Harmala is native to India and Iran and is colloquially called 'Soma'. It contains the same chemicals (MAOI) that are in the Ayahuasca vine and render DMT orally active when combined with a DMT containing plant.
It is sometimes used as an Ayahuasca analogue for this purpose.

People unfamiliar with psychedelics have no idea of their power to trigger experiences of selfless states and supernormal powers, deep revelatory insight etc. However there are dangers also, it has to be classed as outside the standard dhamma as it can be harmful for some.
However it is without doubt beneficial for others.

I will share here my favourite trip report of a Somahuasca trip from erowid for those interested with some excerpts.

https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=93389

"It’s as though the “I” has been pulled out from under “what is.”

My vision is 360 degrees. I am pure perception in all directions. The pinpoints are now more substantial forms, and I can identify entities coursing through the digitalized architecture all around me. They are speaking with their minds but what they tell me is not words, or even ideas, but straight up visual truths...

...thus causing the scene in front of me to collapse and reconfigure into an endless hall of mirrors, revealing to me the endless lives that I have lived and continue to live on all levels. I truly understand that there is no such thing as death. Death is a linguistic trap that we’ve created because we are caught up in dualistic perception. Life never ends. We/I never dies. Our bodies perish and are reborn, but I/you/us can never remember the experience of our birth, or our death. One conscious life blends seamlessly into the next, and from our perspective WE ARE ALWAYS RIGHT HERE...

...I am acutely aware of our suffering, and understand that all I need to do is love. So I love from the very center of being—I send love to myself, and to everyone else who every day must struggle with a sense of being “less than”...

Everything simply is, and I am too. Floating, I am infinity. I am the entirety of existence, of matter, of energy, of time. I am every concept brought back to its fundamental beginning, which is its final end point, and nowhere does such a division exist. This is a quiet that is beyond comprehension or explanation."



To class them as simply 'intoxicants' like alcohol is ridiculous in my view, one of the things that would deter me from becoming a monastic is ambiguity over whether these tools are allowable to be used because they can be enlightenment aids if used correctly. I have also spoken to highly regarded and read Western lay dhamma teachers who will remain nameless, who whilst not advocating them say they have personally used and will use them in future as part of their practice.
silence-seekers-cameron-gray.jpg
system.jpg
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:26 am
I am going to comment that I believe some of these psychedelics such as LSD and Ayahuasca (DMT) can be enlightening agents if combined with meditation insight practices. However they can be harmful if misused also so how you use it is key.
Why didn’t the Buddha recommend them then? It’s not like he didn’t know about the practice of using drugs for so called spiritual insights.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

Post by asahi »

A state induced by chemical could not sustain . It may resemble sort of enlightening experience but it should not be taken as same .
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