Anapanasati Vs. jhana

[starter]

Anapanasati taught in MN 118 is for practicing four mindfulness (the 7th path factor), not really for entering deep jhana, as I understand. From the suttas I've gotten a sense that the Buddha probably used simple breath meditation (watching in & out breathing, like the first tetrad of MN 118) for entering jhana. The jhana experience he obtained when he was a child certainly had nothing to do with more than watching the breath, I suppose.

Today I listened to MN 36 again:

... "I recall that when my father the Sakyan was occupied, while I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by initial application and sustained application (of mind to breathing), with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion." ...

My understanding is that for samadhi/jhana a meditation object must be attended to steadily, as in the case quoted above. There might be confusion between the methods of using the breath as the meditation object for samadhi (also named Anapanasati?) and the 16 steps of Anapanasati for developing 4 mindfulness as described in MN 118 (I believe one needs to attain at least the 1st jhana in order to practice Anapanasati).

I'm wondering if it's because steadily attending to breath (or another meditation object) for samadhi meditation was such a common sense everyone knew at the Buddha's time, that he didn't think it's necessary to teach it then. It's kind of funny that beginners nowadays would no longer know how to do samadhi meditation and would use the complicated 16 steps for reaching jhana.

Metta to all!

[daverupa]

(I believe one needs to attain at least the 1st jhana in order to practice Anapanasati).

I'm not so sure... I think that satipatthana is a basic foundation, and that anapanasati is a way to transition to jhana. It isn't actually to be done as sixteen steps, just like satipatthana isn't actually sixteen steps.

So, in that respect, while the anapanasati instructions include reference to the breath there are other 'objects' alongside the breath in every quadrant of the practice, so there is no exclusive focus on the breath (and thus no object-focus as such) when anapanasati is done. The approach is a letting-go, not a grip-only-this.

[Spiny Norman]

I'm not so sure... I think that satipatthana is a basic foundation, and that anapanasati is a way to transition to jhana. It isn't actually to be done as sixteen steps, just like satipatthana isn't actually sixteen steps.

I tend to agree. Several of the Anapanasati Sutta commentaries I've read have a heavy emphasis on jhana in the first 3 tetrads, with only the 4th tetrad being fully focussed on insight. It's reminiscent of the progression from jhana to insight described in other suttas ( eg see the last third of DN2 ).

Reading some modern commentaries you might get the idea that the 4 tetrads is basically just "doing" satipatthana with the breath, but IMO that's missng the point of the practice.

[daverupa]

a heavy emphasis on jhana in the first 3 tetrads, with only the 4th tetrad being fully focussed on insight.

This ossifies a false dichotomy, I think, but maybe not.

Just that, with anapanasati, it's a refinement of seated satipatthana such that jhana is facilitated - but samatha-vipassana are yoked the whole time, the way "calmly observing" is a whole phrase.

Kayagatasati is enough for jhana, which leads me to think that any anapanasati tetrad can refine satipatthana into jhana. Anapanasati is a mode of satipatthana, not another practice altogether, so whichever tetrad is being anapanasati'd, that one can be the launch-pad for jhana.

[Spiny Norman]

a heavy emphasis on jhana in the first 3 tetrads, with only the 4th tetrad being fully focussed on insight.

This ossifies a false dichotomy, I think, but maybe not.

Just that, with anapanasati, it's a refinement of seated satipatthana such that jhana is facilitated - but samatha-vipassana are yoked the whole time, the way "calmly observing" is a whole phrase.

Kayagatasati is enough for jhana, which leads me to think that any anapanasati tetrad can refine satipatthana into jhana. Anapanasati is a mode of satipatthana, not another practice altogether, so whichever tetrad is being anapanasati'd, that one can be the launch-pad for jhana.

Clearly there is a relationship between anapanasati and satipatthana, but I wouldn't agree that anapanasati is just another way of doing satipatthana.
The 4 frames of satipatthana look like a piecemeal system where one is usually focussing on one frame at a time, whereas the 4 tetrads seem to describe a progression from calm to concentration to insight.

[culaavuso]

Clearly there is a relationship between anapanasati and satipatthana, but I wouldn't agree that anapanasati is just another way of doing satipatthana.
The 4 frames of satipatthana look like a piecemeal system where one is usually focussing on one frame at a time, whereas the 4 tetrads seem to describe a progression from calm to concentration to insight.

MN 118 seems to draw a stronger connection between the four tetrads and the four frames:

And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself...

On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves...

On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out satisfying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out steadying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out releasing the mind': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself

On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves

One interesting difference is that the MN 10 Kāyānupassanā instructions start with the first tetrad of the Ānāpānasati instructions from MN 118 but then deepen in a way that parallels the Kāyagatāsati instructions of MN 119.

[hermitwin]

Ayya Khema said' vipassana is not a meditation method, it is the result of meditation. I repeat, vipassana is not a meditation method, it is the outcome.
Vipassana means insight. Not a superior meditation method.

[hermitwin]

Here is the talk by Ayya Khema.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzSFB3PO6Js

[hermitwin]

For more meditation instructions.

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/334/

[Spiny Norman]

MN 118 seems to draw a stronger connection between the four tetrads and the four frames:

Yes, I was looking at that section of MN118. But the connections which are made look to me rather contrived and tenuous, almost like an afterthought.
Below are the relevant lines from that section:
I think the first frame connection is straightforward; the second frame connection seems to say that attention to in&out breaths is a feeling, which I find puzzling; the third and fourth frame connections seem to me very tenuous indeed.

"[1] I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
"[2] I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
"[3] I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
"[4] He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

[daverupa]

Those similes may indeed be late afterthoughts, but the idea that anapanasati is shaped according to satipatthana is found other places, e.g. SN 54.6.

The way that anapanasati is mapped to satipatthana suggests to me that satipatthana is the more original foundational structure, while the common samana breathing practices were molded to that foundation in order to align it with the Dhamma. Other ways of doing satipatthana abound, so breathing as one among them makes sense.

SN 47.10 shows how satipatthana can be developed in a number of ways, none of them anapanasati, and all of them approaching what looks like a possible description of a jhana. SN 47.4 shows the importance of satipatthana in general, but again a specific connection to anapanasati is only made by way of the fact that anapanasati is always depicted with sixteen aspects in four quadrants.

Otherwise, we're left with MN 10 & MN 118 and not much else on the matter of their relationship, except perhaps when anapanasati is included in a long list of perceptions at AN 10.60, which all seem to fit in one or another satipatthana category...

(In the Vinaya, anapanasati is introduced at the time of the many suicides of the monks doing asubha practices, so it makes sense to me for that to have been an occasion for setting out a specific satipatthana development; AN 10.60 includes asubha practices as parts 3 and 4, on that note.)

---

I consider the Udana quite early, and there we can find:

“The meditation on the unattractive should be developed for the giving up of passion, friendliness meditation should be developed for the giving up of ill-will, mindfulness of breathing should be developed for the cutting off of thoughts, the perception of impermanence should be developed for the complete uprooting of the conceit ‘I am’. To one who has the perception of impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of non-self is established, one who perceives non-self reaches the complete uprooting of the conceit ‘I am’, in this very life reaches Emancipation.”

So, with the AN 10.60 list of perceptions, and this list of four perceptions, and the way anapanasati is discussed, I'm willing to see sixteen-step anapanasati as somewhat late, coming at the end of a bit of development. I still think it adheres to the injunction to make "letting go" one's theme when conditioning jhana, but it's nevertheless a bit more baroque than the simpler bhavana instructions which seem to me to underlie.

[Spiny Norman]

SN 47.10 shows how satipatthana can be developed in a number of ways, none of them anapanasati, and all of them approaching what looks like a possible description of a jhana.

That's an interesting one, I don't think I've read it before - the focus seems to be on concentration rather than insight. It includes the phrase "That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign.", which sounds similar to the approach of looking for pleasant feeling described by some modern commentators.

[starter]

The way that anapanasati is mapped to satipatthana suggests to me that satipatthana is the more original foundational structure, while the common samana breathing practices were molded to that foundation ...

-- I agree. Such molding is for a systematic practice of satipatthana at one sitting, after establishing the four foundations of mindfulness.

I consider the Udana quite early, and there we can find:

“The meditation on the unattractive should be developed for the giving up of passion, friendliness meditation should be developed for the giving up of ill-will, mindfulness of breathing should be developed for the cutting off of thoughts, the perception of impermanence should be developed for the complete uprooting of the conceit ‘I am’. To one who has the perception of impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of non-self is established, one who perceives non-self reaches the complete uprooting of the conceit ‘I am’, in this very life reaches Emancipation.”

-- I tend to think that mindfulness of breathing cited in Udana 4.1 refers to the samatha breathing practices of watching in and out breathing (at that time the 16 steps of anapanassati might have not been developed), since only "cutting off thoughts" was mentioned here.

SN 54.6
Arittha Sutta: To Arittha
(On Mindfulness of Breathing)

"At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, do you develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing?"

When this was said, Ven. Arittha replied to the Blessed One, "I develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, lord."

"But how do you develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, Arittha?"

"Having abandoned sensual desire for past sensual pleasures, lord, having done away with sensual desire for future sensual pleasures, and having thoroughly subdued perceptions of irritation (resistance) with regard to internal & external events, I breathe in mindfully and breathe out mindfully."

"There is that mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, Arittha. I don't say that there isn't. But as to how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is brought in detail to its culmination ... (16 steps)". http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta to all!

[Spiny Norman]

So, with the AN 10.60 list of perceptions, and this list of four perceptions, and the way anapanasati is discussed, I'm willing to see sixteen-step anapanasati as somewhat late, coming at the end of a bit of development. I still think it adheres to the injunction to make "letting go" one's theme when conditioning jhana, but it's nevertheless a bit more baroque than the simpler bhavana instructions which seem to me to underlie.

Clearly the 16-step aspect is significant because without it the 4 tetrads look much more like the 4 frames, ie a practice which can be done "piecemeal" and not as a progression.

[Spiny Norman]

-- I agree. Such molding is for a systematic practice of satipatthana at one sitting, after establishing the four foundations of mindfulness.

But if the 4 tetrads are just satipatthana, then why the inclusion of the jhanic absorption factors? Why not just progress through the four frames as per the Satipatthana Sutta, using the breath as an anchor?