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The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel

The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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retrofuturist
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:54 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:29 am


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:35 am

Greetings pt1,

If the Buddha said that and if that's what he meant, he must have had the ability to look forward at least 294 years into the future to when such a thing came into being.

Maybe he did... commentarial accounts of his omniscience would permit it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:39 am


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:42 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:44 am


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:04 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:41 pm


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:20 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:03 pm


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:21 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:02 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:46 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:50 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:20 am


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:22 am


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:24 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:20 pm

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:10 pm

I finally was back at my Tipitaka library this past weekend and so had the opportunity to look up the exact passages as translated by the Pali Text Society:

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great informed the Order, saying: 'Your reverences, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order I could question Upali on discipline.' Then the venerable Upali informed the Order, saying: 'Honorable sirs, the Order listen to me . . . "

And then the Patimokkha of the Vinaya was recited.

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great informed the Order saying: 'Honored sirs, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order I could question Ananda about dhamma.' Then the venerable Ananada informed the Order saying: 'Honored sirs, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order, I, questioned on the dhamma by the venerable Kassapa the Great, could answer . . . "

And then Kassapa questions Ananda on the first two chapters of the Digha Nikaya and after that we have:

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great questioned the venerable Ananda as to the provenance of the Samannaphala and he questioned him as to the individual. In this same way he questioned him about the five Nikayas. Constantly, questioned, the venerable Ananda answered."

Vinaya, Cullavagga XI

My emphasis in bold above, notice how that sentence appears to be a summarizing statement, stating all of the rest that was recited at the First Council.

At least from the Canonical account (Tipitaka), there appears to be no indication that the Abhidhamma was recited at the First Council.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby cooran » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:40 pm

Hello all,

From an old thread by RobertIK:

The Attahasalini (expositor) p32
"Which is the Khuddaka Nikaya? The whole of the Vinaya-pitaka, Abhidhamma pitaka and the fifteen divisions excluding the four nikayas" p35 "thus as rehearsed at the [first]council the Abhidhamma is a
Pitaka by Pitaka classification, khuddaka -nikaya by Nikaya classification, veyyakarana by part-classification and constitues two or three thousand units of text by classification of textual units"

Majjhima Nikaya
Mahagosingha sutta
"the talk of two Bhikkhus on the Abhidhamma, each asking and answering the other without faltering is in accord with the Dhamma"

Gulissaani Sutta (M 69)
> aaraññikenaavuso, bhikkhunaa abhidhamme abhivinaye yogo kara.niiyo
> "Friends, by a bhikkhu living the forest effort ought to be made in abhidhamma and abhivinaya"

Vinaya pitaka
"If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another saying -'pray study the suttas or gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards learn the vinaya' there is no offense"
Vinaya iv 344

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... ssage/3350

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---


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