Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mikenz66
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:What do (or would) you do if you were to disagree with your teacher on a particular doctrinal issue?

What if you assessed your teacher's instructions against the Four Great Standards (as detailed in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta) and found them to be lacking? What do you do then?
It hasn't happened yet. Why pose such hypothetical questions?

My experience has always been that my teachers have sorted out my confusion.

Metta
Mike
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Why pose such hypothetical questions?
It's hardly hypothetical when you consider the vast plethora of different opinions, ideas, focuses and interpretations that exist within the Theravada tradition.

Are there two people anywhere in the world, let alone within Theravada, who hold identical perspectives on all matters?

Such universal conformance in all matters seems far more hypothetical than the situation I presented.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Are there two people anywhere in the world, let alone within Theravada, who hold identical perspectives
I honestly have not had this problem with the various real-life teachers that I have interacted with. They may emphasise different things but I have never had any significant disagreement with teachers (or serious practitioners) that I know in "real life".

There may be minor path variations, but in the end, are we not supposed to be verifying the same Dhamma?

Mike
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

I'm pleased it's working for you, then.

:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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siaophengyou
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by siaophengyou »

christopher::: wrote: Hi Mike. That link is extremely helpful. I feel a bit awkward admitting that all this time spent with fellow Buddhists at E-sangha, here and ZFI i still have some confusion. It's probably because it's been online fellowship, with people from a number of different schools and traditions.

Anyway, I was asking in regards to the modern Western use of the term "Sangha" as well as the traditional approach and how the term was used by the Buddha. And wondering about differences that exist. Here in Japan most Buddhist layperson's that I've met do not have personal teachers, whereas most Western Buddhists either have teachers or are seeking one. Those that do not yet have a teacher (like myself) are often told (usually by Tibetan & Zen Buddhists) that we need to find a personal teacher in order to practice the dhamma correctly.

I was wondering how the situation is viewed with Theravadin practitioners.

I'm working thru that article. So, thanks!

:group:
Dear Christopher,

this is taken from:
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/pandita9.htm
The third protection is the one I will dwell on here. It is sakaccha nuggahita, discussion with a teacher, and it is likened to the many processes involved in cultivating a plant. Plants need different things at different times. Soil may need to be loosened around the roots, but not too much, or the roots will lose their grip in the soil. Leaves must be trimmed, again with care. Overshadowing plants must be cut down. In just this way, when we discuss our practice with a teacher, the teacher will give different instructions depending on what is needed to keep us on the right path.
My suggestion would be, go for an intensive retreat, a month or two, perhaps longer if you wish to. Follow the Teacher's instructions faithfully, and you will get maximum benefit of your practice.

metta,

siaophengyou
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by christopher::: »

siaophengyou wrote:
My suggestion would be, go for an intensive retreat, a month or two, perhaps longer if you wish to. Follow the Teacher's instructions faithfully, and you will get maximum benefit of your practice.
Thanks, siaophengyou. Yes, i hope to be able to go on extended retreats, eventually. Family and work responsibilities make that difficult, now, but in a few years it should become possible, for at least a week or so during the summer-- either here in Japan where i live, in Thailand, or back home in NY...

I'd like to try and attend at least one daylong retreat next year. I really have no excuse for not making that happen.

http://nyimc.org/index.php/site/eventcalendar/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by kc2dpt »

retrofuturist wrote:The second, is that I'm yet to encounter anyone with whom I'm completely in accord and in agreement with other than the Buddha himself.
Since you have not met the Buddha himself what you really mean is that you have not met anyone with whom you are completely in accord with other than your own interpretation of what the Buddha has been recorded as having said. In other words, you have not found anyone you agree with other than yourself. In such a situation I worry about ego getting in the way. You are interpreting the scriptures and so is any teacher you may meet. Why do you assume your interpretation is superior to anyone else's?
Inevitably I foresee a situation where this hyptohetical teacher says one thing, which I simply cannot bring myself to agree with because I believe the Buddha taught otherwise... an impasse would be reached.
The whole point of a teacher is to have someone help us get past our own delusions.

If you are not at a point in your life where you can put aside your ego and receive guidance then that's where you're at. No point in forcing things. Alternatively, maybe in fact you are right and everyone else is wrong. That too is possible.
mikenz66 wrote:To me a key feature of live teachers that I trust is that they can point out problems with my practice or interpretations.
I agree.
retro wrote:What do (or would) you do if you were to disagree with your teacher on a particular doctrinal issue?
I discuss it with him respectfully, try my best to understand where exactly we disagree and why. And if I still disagree then I respectfully keep it to myself and carry on with my practice. Theravada does not have the sort of formalized student/teacher relationships where absolute submission is required. There are no pop quizzes.
retro wrote:do not have a student-teacher relationship with any of them. My relationships are predominantly in the form of kalyana-mittas (spiritual friends).
I don't see the distinction. This may in fact be the root of our apparent disagreement on the importance of teachers.
mike wrote:My experience has always been that my teachers have sorted out my confusion.
Same here.
retro wrote:It's hardly hypothetical when you consider the vast plethora of different opinions, ideas, ... and interpretations that exist within the Theravada tradition.
Vast plethora? Really? Maybe on internet forums, but I have not found it to be so in real life. I have received teachings from many monks and nuns and found remarkable consistency. You also mentioned different focuses. So what? It is no bother to me if this teacher focuses on X and that teacher on Y. There is no conflict in different people having different focuses. On the contrary, I would expect each practitioner to require their own particular focus for where they each are on the Path.

Well, just my two cents. Nothing important here.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by siaophengyou »

Retro,

perhaps you haven't met a Teacher with a Great qualities which arouse your faith to practice just by seeing him. Only then you will realize that any intellectual or theoretical speculation is useless in the practice. Those Teacher indeed a real Noble Disciple of the Buddha.

with metta,

siaophengyou
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by DNS »

siaophengyou wrote: perhaps you haven't met a Teacher with a Great qualities which arouse your faith to practice just by seeing him. Only then you will realize that any intellectual or theoretical speculation is useless in the practice. Those Teacher indeed a real Noble Disciple of the Buddha.
For those of you who believe in the supremacy of having a teacher, what would you do in the following situation:

You follow Theravada, from the Mahavihara classical position or just Theravada, if you prefer that term by itself, and your teacher tells you not to pay attention to the Abhidhamma. The teacher tells you jhanas are unnecessary and not important. The teacher tells you reading and study is also not important, you just need to sit and follow your breath and do no other practice. And you are not a beginner and know that there are other practices and doctrines of Theravada which could help your practice. What do you do?

The above is a hypothetical example, but not unrealistic and I have seen some teachers take such a position. Do you just ignore those teachings? Find another teacher?

If yes, how would you know to do that, unless you did some self-study on your own. I think one should never underestimate the value and importance of study on your own. Finding a teacher can be useful for some, but in addition to your study and practice. Otherwise, you might just blindly follow a bad teacher and yes, there are some out there.

The Buddha attained parinibbana, but also proclaimed the Dhamma as the refuge and teacher we should seek (see quote in my previous post).
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Peter,
Peter wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:The second, is that I'm yet to encounter anyone with whom I'm completely in accord and in agreement with other than the Buddha himself.
Since you have not met the Buddha himself what you really mean is that you have not met anyone with whom you are completely in accord with other than your own interpretation of what the Buddha has been recorded as having said.
That is true, but I think you're getting the wrong end of the stick, because my interpretation doesn't come about simply on account of my pre-existing views... it's a process of reviewing, absorbing and synthesizing all available information and using these analytical methods and comparisons to my own experience, to build that picture of what the Dhamma is. It cannot be avoided that there is some level of interpretation going on... when a teacher gives a Dhamma talk to fifty people, do they all understand it the same way? What causes the differences in interpretation?
Peter wrote:In other words, you have not found anyone you agree with other than yourself.
Who says I agree with myself? If I did, why would I be interested in studying the world of the Buddha? Doubtlessly there remain certain inconsistencies in my own understanding... only through further study, meditation and consideration of others perspectives will I be able to become aware of these inconsistencies and remedy them. I have taken refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha... not myself.
Peter wrote:In such a situation I worry about ego getting in the way.
That is a genuine risk to any spiritual seeker - it takes a great deal of self-honesty to seek the truth and not let any prevailing attachment to views cloud that path.
Peter wrote:You are interpreting the scriptures and so is any teacher you may meet. Why do you assume your interpretation is superior to anyone else's?
I don't. If what they're saying doesn't fit into the framework of the Dhamma as I understand it then I will review the inconsistency, investigate if necessary, and review my previous understanding accordingly.
If you are not at a point in your life where you can put aside your ego and receive guidance then that's where you're at.
It's not about ego. Look at the previous quotations from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta... I am following the instructions that the Buddha gave. As for "guidance", I'm open to anyone illuminating the Dhamma in different ways for me to consider. This is why I like Buddhist forums so much... people are free to raise their understandings, we can discuss, see where there is alignment, where there is not, and continually review our understanding based on what we come across in our discussions.
No point in forcing things. Alternatively, maybe in fact you are right and everyone else is wrong. That too is possible.
We'll only be right once we're Ariya. Until then, I'll be trying to understand what the Buddha taught, through all means available, including talking to you.
retro wrote:What do (or would) you do if you were to disagree with your teacher on a particular doctrinal issue?
I discuss it with him respectfully, try my best to understand where exactly we disagree and why. And if I still disagree then I respectfully keep it to myself and carry on with my practice. Theravada does not have the sort of formalized student/teacher relationships where absolute submission is required. There are no pop quizzes.
What makes you think that what I do is essentially any more different than what you're doing then?
Peter wrote:
retro wrote:do not have a student-teacher relationship with any of them. My relationships are predominantly in the form of kalyana-mittas (spiritual friends).
I don't see the distinction. This may in fact be the root of our apparent disagreement on the importance of teachers.
Quite possibly.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by kc2dpt »

TheDhamma wrote:For those of you who believe in the supremacy of having a teacher, what would you do in the following situation:

You follow Theravada, from the Mahavihara classical position or just Theravada, if you prefer that term by itself, and your teacher tells you not to pay attention to the Abhidhamma. The teacher tells you jhanas are unnecessary and not important. The teacher tells you reading and study is also not important, you just need to sit and follow your breath and do no other practice. And you are not a beginner and know that there are other practices and doctrines of Theravada which could help your practice. What do you do?
There's a few things here.

1] You say this is my teacher. If this person is my teacher then I chose them to be my teacher. I must have had a reason and that will factor in to what I do in this situation.

2] If my teacher says X is unnecessary and I think X should be part of my practice then I can conclude that it would be fruitless to ask his teacher about X. A teacher is not a boss, they are someone I can ask questions and get guidance. If a teacher isn't into a particular practice then I would not go to him for guidance on that practice. But just because they don't do a particular practice does not mean that I can't.

Now in your hypothetical they have also said that particular practice is unnecessary or shouldn't be done. On this point I would want to know why they feel that way. Now this is a hypothetical so we can only go so far with this... but in my experience when a teacher says this it is because they themselves don't do that practice and therefore feel no one needs to. That is a common, though unfortunate, occurrence. But again, that doesn't have to have any bearing on what I do. If this is a practice I have found to be useful then I would continue with it. Which leads us to...

3] If it was a practice I haven't yet tried but was considering trying, or if it wasn't even something I had heard of due to my own lack of study, then I would just follow my teacher's advice. After all, what difference does it make? If I think my teacher has something worthwhile to teach me, then what is the harm in trying out his preferred practice rather than some other practice? To take your example, there is really no harm in NOT reading Abhidhamma, NOT worrying about jhanas, and just watching the breath. It seems to me that is a good practice that with proper guidance can take one far on the Path.
The above is a hypothetical example, but not unrealistic and I have seen some teachers take such a position. Do you just ignore those teachings? Find another teacher?
It depends. Neither would be unreasonable depending on where you're at in your practice.
Otherwise, you might just blindly follow a bad teacher and yes, there are some out there.
Firstly, following the breath is a good practice. I would not so quickly call a teacher who teaches in this way a "bad teacher". Secondly, one could follow a bad teacher and one could follow a bad self. At least a teacher is more likely to have the support of his teachers and fellows in the holy life. All you've got is you.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by kc2dpt »

retrofuturist wrote:What makes you think that what I do is essentially any more different than what you're doing then?
It doesn't seem to be very different. The difference seems to be our attitude to it. It think it is important, perhaps vital, to get guidance from those with longer and deeper connections to the teachings (and the Buddha) than I have. You appear to find it completely optional.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by siaophengyou »

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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by DNS »

Peter wrote:
The above is a hypothetical example, but not unrealistic and I have seen some teachers take such a position. Do you just ignore those teachings? Find another teacher?
It depends. Neither would be unreasonable depending on where you're at in your practice.
In the example I gave I mentioned that one is not a beginner:

"The teacher tells you reading and study is also not important, you just need to sit and follow your breath and do no other practice. And you are not a beginner and know that there are other practices and doctrines of Theravada which could help your practice. What do you do?"
Firstly, following the breath is a good practice. I would not so quickly call a teacher who teaches in this way a "bad teacher". Secondly, one could follow a bad teacher and one could follow a bad self. At least a teacher is more likely to have the support of his teachers and fellows in the holy life. All you've got is you.
I didn't say following the breath is bad instruction or bad teaching from a bad teacher. That was a separate point not related to the hypothetical student referred to before who was not a beginner.

But, on the subject of a bad teacher, what about a teacher who instructed you to drink alcohol while you meditate? If there is no study, how would you know that is a violation of the precepts?
All you've got is you.
Why? What happened to the Dhamma? The Dhamma, the Buddha's dispensation is still with us. The Pali Canon is here in (virtually) full translation for us to read and study.
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Hi all,

Just a note from my personal experience. I'm so immeasurably grateful for the guidance and information I've received from teachers. It's been invaluable to me. And I seriously doubt that I could have ever reached such conclusions on my own. If I could it would take a very long time. The nice thing about teachers, both lay and ordained, is that they have a lot of information and experience that they can share and provide, if you're willing to be receptive. They've dedicated their lives to the dharma, whereas for me it's something for which I have to make time from my other daily responsibilities. But different strokes for different folks, as it goes. For me, I'll soak up anything from someone who has made a profession and life of dharma (assuming it's a reliable teacher) that they're willing to give.

Best,
Drolma

:anjali:
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