Hi David
I don't think there's anything wrong with trying out different approaches. However, I wouldn't be too concerned about a teacher saying to his or her students 'concentrate on x - don't worry about y'. For the vast majority of us, as householders, we don't have the time or the personal resources to engage in practicing all the various samatha techniques uninterrupted for years on end in total seclusion, nor the time to practice all vipassana variants.
At some point, I believe, one must devote oneself to one particular approach for a length of time to see if it gives benefit. If it doesn't one simply moves on. But having a teacher (let's say another hypothetical teacher), who provided his students with a variety of practices could be counter to the student making any progress at all. One does a little bit of anapana, earth kasina, perhaps vipassana, contemplation of death and others. One may not get established in either one and there is a danger that such approach can turn the experience into another sensory entertainment, a smorgasbord.
It was the students of Webu Sayadaw who said that he became an arahant on little more than observing his breath. On reading his discourses, it is clear that he knew nothing of the Abhidhamma and according to U Ba Khin and others, the Sayadaw knew no Pali.
So I don't think its a problem. If one doesn't get benefit from one's teacher's approach following a trial period of following that teacher's instructions, then move on.
Kind regards
Ben
Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
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- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
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e: [email protected]..
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Hi Ben,Ben wrote: So I don't think its a problem. If one doesn't get benefit from one's teacher's approach following a trial period of following that teacher's instructions, then move on.
Yes, I agree. And the way one will know when and how to do this is from study.
Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Ok, from my perspective, it needs to be experienced.TheDhamma wrote:Hi Ben,Ben wrote: So I don't think its a problem. If one doesn't get benefit from one's teacher's approach following a trial period of following that teacher's instructions, then move on.
Yes, I agree. And the way one will know when and how to do this is from study.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Can't it be both? Or one or the other? The Buddha gave us the Dhamma and Discipline, no need to re-invent the wheel. We can study and practice and learn from both.Ben wrote: Ok, from my perspective, it needs to be experienced.
Thanks to the Buddha we don't have to just sit only and figure this all out. There are the discourses that can be studied and put into practice (both).
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Greetings Peter,
Consider all the people here more knowledgeable than me... consider all the people who write and speak on the Dhamma (as obtained via books, talks, online texts) who are more knowledgeable than me. Consider those who translate texts and speak to them through their own "longer and deeper connections to the teachings and the Buddha". I am open to what all of them have to say.
Even someone generally less knowledgeable than myself on the Dhamma can illuminate something useful for consideration that I may have otherwise been blind to.
Metta,
Retro.
Not at all.It think it is important, perhaps vital, to get guidance from those with longer and deeper connections to the teachings (and the Buddha) than I have. You appear to find it completely optional.
Consider all the people here more knowledgeable than me... consider all the people who write and speak on the Dhamma (as obtained via books, talks, online texts) who are more knowledgeable than me. Consider those who translate texts and speak to them through their own "longer and deeper connections to the teachings and the Buddha". I am open to what all of them have to say.
Even someone generally less knowledgeable than myself on the Dhamma can illuminate something useful for consideration that I may have otherwise been blind to.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Greetings siaophengyou,
Metta,
Retro.
But how did you find your Teacher? Surely you didn't just lob up to the first teacher or monk you came across and surrender yourself completely to their instruction? Surely there was some due diligence, research, investigation and analysis done in determining that the Teacher was appropriate for your requirements. If so, what process was that? What logic or criteria were at play? Do you take Refuge in your teacher?siaophengyou wrote: i will surrender myself completely to the instructions of my Teacher.
Metta,
Retro.
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Admirable friendship is the whole of the path!
My 'teacher' lives in france, I converse propperly with him seldomly, maybe once a year now a days, and maily through a brief mail, when we talk it is more a personal hello than anything else!
he gives a teaching and then he goes, it is always the same, "live with love and let all else go, now shut up and do the practice!"
after about 3 years I am still uncomfortable calling him my teacher because he isn't my teacher, he is my friend who happends to teach! his teacher Reweta Dhamma told him when he asked 'who his teacher was?' he pointed to the Buddha statue near by and said 'his teacher was the Buddha, who taught for 45 years and died, passing on his teachings to his disciples who passed the teachings on down through the centuries to him' - basicly there is only one teacher and that is the Buddha, there is only one teaching and that is the Dhamma, and there is only one vhehicle for the transmition of the Dhamma and that is Admirable Friendship.
just my 2 pence at this stage of the discussion here.
My 'teacher' lives in france, I converse propperly with him seldomly, maybe once a year now a days, and maily through a brief mail, when we talk it is more a personal hello than anything else!
he gives a teaching and then he goes, it is always the same, "live with love and let all else go, now shut up and do the practice!"
after about 3 years I am still uncomfortable calling him my teacher because he isn't my teacher, he is my friend who happends to teach! his teacher Reweta Dhamma told him when he asked 'who his teacher was?' he pointed to the Buddha statue near by and said 'his teacher was the Buddha, who taught for 45 years and died, passing on his teachings to his disciples who passed the teachings on down through the centuries to him' - basicly there is only one teacher and that is the Buddha, there is only one teaching and that is the Dhamma, and there is only one vhehicle for the transmition of the Dhamma and that is Admirable Friendship.
just my 2 pence at this stage of the discussion here.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Dear friends,
What an interesting thread! I have been following the responses and I find myself agreeing with some aspects of both sides of the argument. If I may offer a slightly different perspective to open up the discussion...
As I was reading the posts, it dawned upon me that this very thread--such a discussion about whether a teacher or sangha or self-study is effective or not--is a unique phenomenon of contemporary (Western) Buddhism. Why do I say this?
Well, the Western encounter with Buddhism in the nineteenth century opened up ways of engaging with the Dhamma. The Western academy facilitated the translation and publication of texts, and in doing so, made the teachings widely available and intelligible to a range of audience. Buddhist historians have noted that the development of Western Buddhism has blurred the lines between the monastic and lay communities, such that teachings and practices that were once restricted to ordained Buddhists are now available to lay people. This historical development, in turn, raised questions about the boundaries of authority and expertise.
Yet, this historical development that has blurred the boundaries of authority and expertise is the very same development which has provided us with the abilities to now debate questions of authority and expertise. Produced and shaped by certain (historical, social, cultural) conditions, we are now trying to speak about these conditions--yet, all the while we are within these very conditions. It seems to me that we are, as it were, like fishes trying to argue with one another about how the sea is 'really like'!
What this suggests to me is that, regardless of what one's position is on the importance of teacher/sangha/self-study, one's position is already from the start contingent upon various circumstances. By recognising the conditionality of one's own position, we might then see that there is no one definitive way of approaching the dhamma that can be equally applied to all. In the presence of certain conditions, a student might find one approach beneficial. While in the absence of certain conditions, another student might find another approach beneficial. And conditions being conditions, are anicca and anatta.
My two cents...
What an interesting thread! I have been following the responses and I find myself agreeing with some aspects of both sides of the argument. If I may offer a slightly different perspective to open up the discussion...
As I was reading the posts, it dawned upon me that this very thread--such a discussion about whether a teacher or sangha or self-study is effective or not--is a unique phenomenon of contemporary (Western) Buddhism. Why do I say this?
Well, the Western encounter with Buddhism in the nineteenth century opened up ways of engaging with the Dhamma. The Western academy facilitated the translation and publication of texts, and in doing so, made the teachings widely available and intelligible to a range of audience. Buddhist historians have noted that the development of Western Buddhism has blurred the lines between the monastic and lay communities, such that teachings and practices that were once restricted to ordained Buddhists are now available to lay people. This historical development, in turn, raised questions about the boundaries of authority and expertise.
Yet, this historical development that has blurred the boundaries of authority and expertise is the very same development which has provided us with the abilities to now debate questions of authority and expertise. Produced and shaped by certain (historical, social, cultural) conditions, we are now trying to speak about these conditions--yet, all the while we are within these very conditions. It seems to me that we are, as it were, like fishes trying to argue with one another about how the sea is 'really like'!
What this suggests to me is that, regardless of what one's position is on the importance of teacher/sangha/self-study, one's position is already from the start contingent upon various circumstances. By recognising the conditionality of one's own position, we might then see that there is no one definitive way of approaching the dhamma that can be equally applied to all. In the presence of certain conditions, a student might find one approach beneficial. While in the absence of certain conditions, another student might find another approach beneficial. And conditions being conditions, are anicca and anatta.
My two cents...
Last edited by zavk on Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
With metta,
zavk
zavk
Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
The Buddha tells us how to evaluate a teacher (scroll down to "There is the case"). It is, I think, noteworthy that seeing how well that teacher knows the teachings is not one of the criteria. Rather one chooses a teacher based on other qualities, then learns what that teacher had to teach, then puts those teachings into practice, and then sees for oneself where those teachings lead.retrofuturist wrote:But how did you find your Teacher? Surely you didn't just lob up to the first teacher or monk you came across and surrender yourself completely to their instruction? Surely there was some due research, investigation and analysis done in determining that the Teacher was appropriate for your requirements. If so, what process was that? What logic or criteria were at play? Do you take Refuge in your teacher?
This idea that we must study scripture and then only choose a teacher who's interpretation of that scripture agrees with our own interpretation... this does not seem to be an approach taught by the Buddha.
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Greetings Manapa,
Metta,
Retro.
Far more valuable than that! Well said.Manapa wrote:just my 2 pence at this stage of the discussion here.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
it will need to be Dana from now on!
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manapa,
Far more valuable than that! Well said.Manapa wrote:just my 2 pence at this stage of the discussion here.
Metta,
Retro.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Greetings Peter,
The point of the Canki Sutta is to show that the Sangha are exemplars of better qualities than the brahmans and that thus, their doctrine and discipline is better...
I disagree that it's a guide for finding a teacher... rather, it's a guide for finding an effective doctrine and discipline, not dissimilar to that given in the Kalama Sutta to an equally non-Buddhist audience.
Metta,
Retro.
Canki was a brahman so of course the Buddha couldn't give him the kind of instruction he gave the bhikkhus in DN16! By that criteria, the knowers of the vedas and such, (from Canki's perspective) would be the most suitable teachers, and the Buddha hardly wanted to teach Canki that!Peter wrote:The Buddha tells us how to evaluate a teacher (scroll down to "There is the case"). It is, I think, noteworthy that seeing how well that teacher knows the teachings is not one of the criteria. Rather one chooses a teacher based on other qualities, then learns what that teacher had to teach, then puts those teachings into practice, and then sees for oneself where those teachings lead.retrofuturist wrote:But how did you find your Teacher? Surely you didn't just lob up to the first teacher or monk you came across and surrender yourself completely to their instruction? Surely there was some due research, investigation and analysis done in determining that the Teacher was appropriate for your requirements. If so, what process was that? What logic or criteria were at play? Do you take Refuge in your teacher?
This idea that we must study scripture and then only choose a teacher who's interpretation of that scripture agrees with our own interpretation... this does not seem to be an approach taught by the Buddha.
The point of the Canki Sutta is to show that the Sangha are exemplars of better qualities than the brahmans and that thus, their doctrine and discipline is better...
...and they are more worthy of emulation. Then he goes to show the qualities of a spiritual-seeker that Canki would do well to employ in his quest for the truth.As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on delusion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not deluded. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's deluded.
I disagree that it's a guide for finding a teacher... rather, it's a guide for finding an effective doctrine and discipline, not dissimilar to that given in the Kalama Sutta to an equally non-Buddhist audience.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
What I find sort of peculiar is that there's this subtle suggestion that if a teacher isn't a good fit, that we're not entirely free to move on and find the right teacher. This happens so often and is a totally appropriate, acceptable thing to do. In fact in my tradition it's recommended. Maybe it's different in Theravada? Where I come from, if a teacher makes suggestions or teaches dharma in a way that a student doesn't find agreeable or it's not a good personal match, it's best to find a better fit.
Kindly,
Drolma
Kindly,
Drolma
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
I believe it is essentially the same, I know some teachers send student off to another teacher who may or may not be better for them but it doesn't stop the originaal teacher being their teacher, even reflecting on others has its benefits.Ngawang Drolma wrote:What I find sort of peculiar is that there's this subtle suggestion that if a teacher isn't a good fit, that we're not entirely free to move on and find the right teacher. This happens so often and is a totally appropriate, acceptable thing to do. In fact in my tradition it's recommended. Maybe it's different in Theravada? Where I come from, if a teacher makes suggestions or teaches dharma in a way that a student doesn't find agreeable or it's not a good personal match, it's best to find a better fit.
Kindly,
Drolma
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
Thanks Manapa, that's helpful. I was puzzled.Manapa wrote:I believe it is essentially the same, I know some teachers send student off to another teacher who may or may not be better for them but it doesn't stop the originaal teacher being their teacher, even reflecting on others has its benefits.Ngawang Drolma wrote:What I find sort of peculiar is that there's this subtle suggestion that if a teacher isn't a good fit, that we're not entirely free to move on and find the right teacher. This happens so often and is a totally appropriate, acceptable thing to do. In fact in my tradition it's recommended. Maybe it's different in Theravada? Where I come from, if a teacher makes suggestions or teaches dharma in a way that a student doesn't find agreeable or it's not a good personal match, it's best to find a better fit.
Kindly,
Drolma