Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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retrofuturist
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Christopher:::,
christopher::: wrote:Anyway, I was asking in regards to the modern Western use of the term "Sangha" as well as the traditional approach and how the term was used by the Buddha. And wondering about differences that exist.
In the context of refuge in the Triple Gem (which was part of the theme of your original post), "Sangha" refers to the Noble Ariyan Sangha.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by siaophengyou »

.......
Last edited by siaophengyou on Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings siaophengyou,
siaophengyou wrote:There's no due diligence, research, investigation and analysis involved in this, only faith and destiny.
Well, it's lucky you ended up where you did instead of with this fellow... (Mike Myers as the Love Guru)

Image

or this fellow... (David Koresh)

Image

or this fellow... (Ron L. Hubbard)

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Something I read at lunchtime from Ven K. Sri Dhammananda in his introductory text "How To Practice Buddhism".

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ddhism.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Faith alone cannot purify the mind to remove doubts so as to help us understand the truth. People can uphold a wrong belief without analyzing it or without having any sense of reasoning because they are afraid that if they do, they might lose their faith and thus also lose their chance to gain salvation.

The Buddha's advice on the other hand is, before accepting any belief as the truth, it is for us to study, investigate, practice and see the results for ourselves in the end. When we come to a conclusion after having made a thorough analytical investigation, we gain confidence in the truth, as we have satisfactorily verified it for ourselves. By realizing the truth ourselves, we naturally gain confidence. This is neither mere faith nor belief but realization. The Buddha's advice is neither to believe nor reject anything at first hand. As we have human minds to enable us to think soberly, we must therefore give a chance to our minds to think independently and understand things in the correct perspective.

We should not think that we just cannot understand. Some people who are very lazy to study a problem in depth, simply do not try to understand things as they really are and so seek the easy way out by just surrendering themselves to what the others say, because they have no self confidence in themsleves. A true Buddhist on the other hand has self-respect, knowing fully well that he is responsible for himself, his actions and his salvation. 'No one saves us but ourselves, the Buddha shows us the correct way'.
Strong words perhaps, but worth reflecting on.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

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siaophengyou wrote: ich bin doch nicht blöd!
Dank zu einigen guten studien!
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by tiltbillings »

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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by retrofuturist »

There's no due diligence, research, investigation and analysis involved in this, only faith and destiny.
Image

Pretty scary stuff...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by tiltbillings »

The facial expressions say a lot.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by appicchato »

tiltbillings wrote:The facial expressions say a lot.
Don't they though...
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Retro
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ybAUM7KoXco&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ybAUM7KoXco&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Hi tilt & Bhante
if people are that cought up with being free to practice the way they want they should just practice the way they want instead of looking for approval.
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by kc2dpt »

retrofuturist wrote:I disagree that it's a guide for finding a teacher... rather, it's a guide for finding an effective doctrine and discipline
There is a difference?
- Peter

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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Peter,

I think they're different.

Sometimes I give extreme examples to make a point... and I think a paccekabuddha would be a good example one here. Self-enlightened based on the Dhamma, but unwilling or unable to teach.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by Ben »

Hi Paul
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Peter,

I think they're different.

Sometimes I give extreme examples to make a point... and I think a paccekabuddha would be a good example one here. Self-enlightened based on the Dhamma, but unwilling or unable to teach.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I think you're drawing a very long bow by using a paccekabuddha as an example. They're in a completely different league and can only be compared with sammasambuddhas. Like sammasambuddhas, paccekabuddhas rediscover the dhamma only after it had been lost for aeons. So a paccekabuddha, unlike ourselves, does not have access to the recorded dhamma of a buddha or other dhammic literature. Another important difference between us and a paccekabuddha is that we have not developed our paramitas to the same extent that we can discover the dhamma on our own in a dhammic vaccuum.
Kind regards

Ben
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,

My point simply was that someone who satisfies this test from the Canki Sutta that Peter drew our attention to...
As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on delusion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not deluded. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's deluded.
... has a good Dhamma and discipline, but is not necessarily by default a good teacher.

I think the disconnect between the two in the instance of a paccekabuddha in fact makes paccekabuddhas the perfect example to demonstrate this point to Peter, who was questioning whether there is a difference between the two.

I'm not suggesting that people try to invent their own Dhamma in the absence of one, or anything bizarre like that. That would be totally incongruent with everything I've said throughout this topic to date.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by pink_trike »

zavk wrote:Dear friends,

What an interesting thread! I have been following the responses and I find myself agreeing with some aspects of both sides of the argument. If I may offer a slightly different perspective to open up the discussion...

As I was reading the posts, it dawned upon me that this very thread--such a discussion about whether a teacher or sangha or self-study is effective or not--is a unique phenomenon of contemporary (Western) Buddhism. Why do I say this?

Well, the Western encounter with Buddhism in the nineteenth century opened up ways of engaging with the Dhamma. The Western academy facilitated the translation and publication of texts, and in doing so, made the teachings widely available and intelligible to a range of audience. Buddhist historians have noted that the development of Western Buddhism has blurred the lines between the monastic and lay communities, such that teachings and practices that were once restricted to ordained Buddhists are now available to lay people. This historical development, in turn, raised questions about the boundaries of authority and expertise.

Yet, this historical development that has blurred the boundaries of authority and expertise is the very same development which has provided us with the abilities to now debate questions of authority and expertise. Produced and shaped by certain (historical, social, cultural) conditions, we are now trying to speak about these conditions--yet, all the while we are within these very conditions. It seems to me that we are, as it were, like fishes trying to argue with one another about how the sea is 'really like'!

What this suggests to me is that, regardless of what one's position is on the importance of teacher/sangha/self-study, one's position is already from the start contingent upon various circumstances. By recognising the conditionality of one's own position, we might then see that there is no one definitive way of approaching the dhamma that can be equally applied to all. In the presence of certain conditions, a student might find one approach beneficial. While in the absence of certain conditions, another student might find another approach beneficial. And conditions being conditions, are anicca and anatta.

My two cents...
Well said, Ed.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

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---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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