The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:54 am

Greetings pt1,

pt1 wrote:The pali for the above 9 divisions of the Dhamma is:
sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, gatha, udana, itivuttaka, jataka, abbhutadhamma, and vedalla.


So by that definition, gatha certainly isn’t a subset of suttas.


According to that definition, sure. My point is that all of those fall under the label of sutta.

Sutta too has multiple definitions, and I was referring to that which I have bolded...

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... ali.171810

Sutta
Sutta1 [pp. of supati] asleep Vin iii.117; v.205; D i.70; ii.130; Dh 47; It 41; J v.328. -- (nt.) sleep D ii.95; M i.448; S iv.169. In phrase ˚ -- pabuddha "awakened from sleep" referring to the awakening (entrance) in the deva -- world, e. g. Vism 314 (brahmalokaŋ uppajjati); DhA i.28 (kanaka -- vimāne nibbatti); iii.7 (id.); cp. S i.143.

Sutta
Sutta2 (nt.) [Vedic sūtra, fr. sīv to sew] 1. a thread, string D i.76; ii.13; Vin ii.150; Pv ii.111 (=kappāsiyā sutta PvA 146); J i.52. -- fig. for taṇhā at Dhs 1059; DhsA 364. -- kāḷa˚ a carpenter's measuring line J ii.405; Miln 413; dīgha˚ with long thread J v.389; makkaṭa˚ spider's thread Vism 136; yantā˚ string of a machine VbhA 241. -- Mentioned with kappāsa as barter for cīvara at Vin iii.216. -- 2. the (discursive, narrational) part of the Buddhist Scriptures containing the suttas or dialogues, later called Sutta -- piṭaka (cp. Suttanta). As such complementary to the Vinaya. The fanciful expln of the word at DhsA 19 is: "atthānaŋ sūcanto suvuttato savanato 'tha sūdanato suttāṇā -- sutta -- sabhāgato ca suttaŋ Suttan ti akkhātaŋ." -- D ii.124; Vin ii.97; VbhA 130 (+vinaya); SnA 159, 310 (compared with Vinaya & Abhidhamma). -- 3. one of the divisions of the Scriptures (see navanga) A ii.103, 178; iii.177, 361 sq.; Miln 263. -- 4. a rule, a clause (of the Pātimokkha) Vin i.65, 68; ii.68, 95; iii.327. -- 5. a chapter, division, dialogue (of a Buddh. text), text, discourse (see also suttanta) S iii.221 (pl. suttā), 253; v.46; Nett 118; DhsA 28. suttaso chapter by chapter A v.72, 81; suttato according to the suttas Vism 562=VbhA 173. -- 6. an ancient verse, quotation J i.288, 307, 314. <-> 7. book of rules, lore, text book J i.194 (go˚ lore of cows); ii.46 (hatthi˚ elephant trainer's handbook).
-- anta 1. a chapter of the Scriptures, a text, a discourse, a sutta, dialogue Vin i.140 sq., 169; ii.75; iii.159; iv.344; A i.60, 69, 72; ii.147; S ii.267=A iii.107 (suttantā kavi -- katā kāveyyā citt'akkharā cittavyañjanā bāhirakā sāvaka -- bhāsitā); Vism 246 sq. (three suttantas helpful for kāyagatā sati). -- 2. the Suttantapiṭaka, opp. to the Vinaya Vism 272 (˚aṭṭhakathā opp. to Vinay'aṭṭhakathā). As ˚piṭaka e. g. at KhA 12; VbhA 431. See Proper Names. -- kantikā (scil. itthi) a woman spinner PvA 75; as ˚kantī at J ii.79. -- kāra a cotton -- spinner Miln 331. -- guḷa a ball of string D i.54; M iii.95; Pv iv.329; PvA 145. -- jāla a web of thread, a spider's web Nd2 260. -- bhikkhā begging for thread PvA 145. -- maya made of threads, i. e. a net SnA 115, 263. -- rajjuka a string of threads Vism 253; VbhA 236. -- lūkha roughly sewn together Vin i.287, 297. -- vāda a division of the Sabbatthavādins Dpvs 5, 48; Mhvs 5, 6; Mhbv 97. -- vibhanga classification of rules Vin ii.97. Also title of a portion of the Vinaya Piṭaka.


Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:29 am

retrofuturist wrote: Sutta too has multiple definitions,

Well sure, but let's look for one that actually applies to the context of the Vinaya quote, otherwise we would be misinterpreting the meaning of the quote.

retrofuturist wrote: and I was referring to that which I have bolded...

Some of the definitions you bolded seem to directly contradict your point, this is becoming very confusing. For example, point 3 is in fact about nine angas (navanga), sutta being one of the nine, gathas being another one, etc. For example see the first sutta given as reference to point 3 - AN ii. 103:
And how is one the type of person who thunders but doesn't rain? There is the case where a person has mastered the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions.[1]

And that note [1]:
1. The earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings.

Aren't you and David after the earliest stuff? (It feels like I'm making your point here, so perhaps you should reciprocate and support the commentaries for a post or two)

Point 6 seems irrelevant since it only needs to be "ancient" (so it could include commentaries for example, which probably wouldn't support your interpretation).

That leaves points 2 and 5 which both seem to be latter classifications and very wide (in fact argument could be made that they include both the abhidhamma pitaka-point 2, and even the commentaries-point 5) but either way, I do not see how is their context applicable to the Vinaya quote. That is, if suttas and gathas and abhidhamma are all called suttas as per def# 2, 5, then there would be no need to differentiate between the three in the Vinaya quote. So, to me it seem that the 9 angas context is more applicable because it differentiates between suttas and other parts of the teaching, and therefore, "abhidhamma" in the quote is not as per your definition of more complex dhamma (def#1 abhidhamma), but as the contents of abhidhamma pitaka. Please dispute that by pointing to holes in my reasoning. Thanks.

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:35 am

Greetings pt1,

If the Buddha said that and if that's what he meant, he must have had the ability to look forward at least 294 years into the future to when such a thing came into being.

Maybe he did... commentarial accounts of his omniscience would permit it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:39 am

retrofuturist wrote:he must have had the ability to look forward at least 294 years into the future to when such a thing came into being.

I don't follow, what does this refer to?

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:42 am

Greetings pt1,

This one...

"If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another saying -'pray study the suttas or gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards learn the vinaya' there is no offense"
Vinaya iv 344


Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:44 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings pt1,

This one...

"If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another saying -'pray study the suttas or gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards learn the vinaya' there is no offense"
Vinaya iv 344


Metta,
Retro. :)

Yep, got that one, but why do yo think he had to be 294 years in the future to say it? thanks
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:04 am

Greetings pt1,

If that Vinaya quote was spoken by the Buddha and if he was referring to the second of the following definitions as is alleged by those who believe that the Buddha himself spoke the Abhidhamma Pitaka...

Abhidhamma [abhi + dhamma] the "special Dhamma," i. e., 1. theory of the doctrine, the doctrine classified, the doctrine pure and simple (without any admixture of literary grace or of personalities, or of anecdotes, or of arguments ad personam), Vin i.64, 68; iv.144; iv.344. Coupled with abhivinaya, D iii.267; M i.272. -- 2. (only in the Chronicles and Commentaries) name of the Third Piṭaka, the third group of the canonical books. Dpvs v.37; PvA 140. See the detailed discussion at DA i.15, 18 sq. [As the word abhidhamma standing alone is not found in Sn or S or A, and only once or twice in the Dialogues, it probably came into use only towards the end of the period in which the 4 great Nikāyas grew up.]


That could only be possible if he were able to look forward in time to the 3rd Buddhist Council, where that thing that he spoke of centuries ago actually came into existence.

I suggest that the use of the term "abhidhamma" (def #1) in the suttas is in itself quite late (i.e. post the Buddha's parinibbana, as the square brackets above suggest) and the term in the context of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (def #2) is even later... namely came into effect at the Third Council.

Thus, by enforcing the use of the 2nd definition to prove that the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma Pitaka, one is logically committed to suggesting the Buddha could see into the future 294+ years... which as I said, could be defendable if one accepts the commentarial perspective on the Buddha's omniscience.

If one is not enforcing the use of the 2nd definition, the 1st must be allowed, and this path does not require seeing into the future beyond one's parinibbana in order to lay down the Vinaya. I consider this far more plausible.

Alternatively, if the Vinaya quote was authored by someone other than the Buddha, after his death, then what it says is no more definitive on whether the Abhidhamma Pitaka is the literal word of the Buddha than what anyone else has said on the matter since.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:41 pm

retrofuturist wrote:If that Vinaya quote was spoken by the Buddha and if he was referring to the second of the following definitions as is alleged by those who believe that the Buddha himself spoke the Abhidhamma Pitaka...


Hi, I assume this is a criticism of the classical position, however, I don’t think this is a correct representation of it.

Afaik, the classical position regarding abhidhamma pitaka goes like this (someone please correct me if I’m wrong):
1. Buddha preached abhidhamma in Tavatimsa.
2. Then he gave the summaries (matikas) of his Tavatimsa sermons to Sariputta.
3. Sariputta then organized and fleshed out these matikas into their current form and thought it to his disciples – what he thought to his disciples is pretty much what abhidhamma pitaka is today (except for the katthavathu).

The argument is then made that the Buddha was there to correct Sariputta, in case there was something wrong with his recension of abhidhamma pitaka. (Remember that Sariputta died before the Buddha, so if abhidhamma pitaka survived after Sariputta’s death, it seems probable that it had the stamp of approval by the Buddha, like in other cases when Sariputta gave a discourse and the Buddha approved). Nevertheless, it is said that abhidhamma is the provenance of the Buddhas – i.e. it originated with the Buddha, and we in the human realm got it through Sariputta. And then abhidhamma pitaka (as arranged by Sariputta) was sung at the first council, which lasted for 7 months I think. As I remember, Sariputta was (while alive - well before the first council) in charge of organising all of the Buddha’s teachings, not just the abhidhamma pitaka, but other pitakas as well, so he wasn’t called “The Marshal of the Dhamma” for no reason.

So, anyway, as I understand it, the real argument between “classical” and “modern” theravadin scholars today regarding the abhidhamma pitaka is not whether the Buddha spoke it, but whether the matikas arranged by Sariputta were in anyway changed/expanded between the first and third councils. Of course, there are more radical Theravadins nowadays who completely reject the abhidhamma pitaka originating from the Buddha (on the basis of it being preached in heaven, etc), though I’m wondering why they don’t call themselves Sautrantikas, because they also supported the Dvipitaka view, only about 2000+ years earlier.
retrofuturist wrote:That could only be possible if he were able to look forward in time to the 3rd Buddhist Council, where that thing that he spoke of centuries ago actually came into existence.

Okay, are there maybe some particular passages in the tipitaka (commentaires even) that you base this view on?
retrofuturist wrote:I suggest that the use of the term "abhidhamma" (def #1) in the suttas is in itself quite late (i.e. post the Buddha's parinibbana, as the square brackets above suggest) and the term in the context of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (def #2) is even later... namely came into effect at the Third Council.

Again, a few tipitaka references would be nice. Thanks.

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:20 pm

pt1 wrote:Of course, there are more radical Theravadins nowadays who completely reject the abhidhamma pitaka originating from the Buddha (on the basis of it being preached in heaven, etc), though I’m wondering why they don’t call themselves Sautrantikas, because they also supported the Dvipitaka view, only about 2000+ years earlier.


Hi pt,

The Sautrāntikas, like the Pudgalavādins, and perhaps nearly all of the other early Buddhist schools rejected the doctrine of anatta in some way or another.

The Theravada may be the only early school that firmly stood by the Buddha's concept of anatta. In my opinion, accepting anatta, one of the three marks of existence (Ti-lakkhana) is far more important to calling oneself a Theravadin, then some other disagreements about the origin of the Abhidhamma.

For the Theravadins who do not accept abhidhamma as Buddhavacana, I don't think it is primarily because of the preaching in heaven story, but rather the absence of the mention of the abhidhamma being recited at the First Council according to the account of the First Council in the Vinaya.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:03 pm

TheDhamma wrote:
pt1 wrote:Of course, there are more radical Theravadins nowadays who completely reject the abhidhamma pitaka originating from the Buddha (on the basis of it being preached in heaven, etc), though I’m wondering why they don’t call themselves Sautrantikas, because they also supported the Dvipitaka view, only about 2000+ years earlier.


Hi pt,

The Sautrāntikas, like the Pudgalavādins, and perhaps nearly all of the other early Buddhist schools rejected the doctrine of anatta in some way or another.

Hi, good point.

TheDhamma wrote:For the Theravadins who do not accept abhidhamma as Buddhavacana, I don't think it is primarily because of the preaching in heaven story, but rather the absence of the mention of the abhidhamma being recited at the First Council according to the account of the First Council in the Vinaya.

Thanks for reminding me, I forgot about the First council thing. Okay, so I assume that the accounts about the first council from atthasalini and vinaya atthakatha I gave before are simply not enough to convince you, right? Let's keep on looking then...

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:21 pm

pt1 wrote:Thanks for reminding me, I forgot about the First council thing. Okay, so I assume that the accounts about the first council from atthasalini and vinaya atthakatha I gave before are simply not enough to convince you, right?


:thinking: :tongue:

Let's keep on looking then...


:thumbsup:
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:02 pm

pt1 wrote: Let's keep on looking then...


From the Vinaya, Parivara, PTS vol. VI. 123:

"this best of creatures, the lion, taught the three pitakas."

But according to virtually every account, the Parivara, is the latest, most recent addition to the Tipitaka, dating around or even after the Fourth Council, which would make it even later than the Abhidhamma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parivara
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:46 pm

Greetings pt1,

pt1 wrote:Okay, are there maybe some particular passages in the tipitaka (commentaires even) that you base this view on?


I do not have direct access to translations of the records of the various Buddhist Council, thus I rely on reading the scholarly accounts of others who do have access to such records, and the time and skills to understand their relationships.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/history.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/abhi/index.html
http://www.yellowrobe.com/credits/refer ... ences.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:50 pm

retrofuturist wrote:I do not have direct access to translations of the records of the various Buddhist Council, thus I rely on reading the scholarly accounts of others who do have access to such records, and the time and skills to understand their relationships.


Hi retro, pt, all,

I don't have my PTS Vinaya copy with me, but know that it is in the Cullavagga, chapter XI where it is recorded that the Patimokkha is recited and the five Nikayas at the First Council and that is it, no mention of any other texts.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:I do not have direct access to translations of the records of the various Buddhist Council, thus I rely on reading the scholarly accounts of others who do have access to such records, and the time and skills to understand their relationships.

Didn’t realize that, sorry for bothering you retro.

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby pt1 » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:22 am

TheDhamma wrote:I don't have my PTS Vinaya copy with me, but know that it is in the Cullavagga, chapter XI where it is recorded that the Patimokkha is recited and the five Nikayas at the First Council and that is it, no mention of any other texts.


Hi David, the only English translation of cullavagga online seems to be the one on sacred-texts by Rhys Davids from 1885:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe20/sbe20119.htm

From there:
Thus did the venerable Mahâ Kassapa question the venerable Ânanda as to the occasion of the Sâmañña-phala, and as to the individual concerned. And in like manner did he question him through the five Nikâyas, and as he was successively asked, so did Ânanda make reply.


I guess it's pointless to note the commentary position that "Abhidhamma is Pitaka by Pitaka
classification, Khuddaka-Nikaya by Nikaya classification..." which would mean that it was recited as part of the fifth nikaya... By the way, do modern theravadins accept Petavatthu and Buddhavamsa (from the fifth nikaya) as having been recited at the first council (because there are also abhidhamma-related passages there, but I don't want to bore you guys if you don't consider them first council material either)?

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:24 am

Greetings pt1,

pt1 wrote:Didn’t realize that, sorry for bothering you retro.


No problems pt1... though I'm certainly interested in seeing what you and David can extract from such resources!

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:20 pm

pt1 wrote: By the way, do modern theravadins accept Petavatthu and Buddhavamsa (from the fifth nikaya) as having been recited at the first council (because there are also abhidhamma-related passages there, but I don't want to bore you guys if you don't consider them first council material either)?


I think most Modern Theravadins see those books as later writings. It is difficult to say conclusively if they were recited at the First Council.

Bhikkhu Bodhi, Dhammavuddho Thera and others have their doubts, as do modern scholars. Modern Theravadins probably hold a slight variety of opinions but probably take one of the following:

1. The first four Nikayas in their entirety are Buddhavacana, plus the following books from the Khuddaka NIkaya: Khuddakapatha, Dhammapada, Udana, Itivutaka, Sutta Nipata, Theragatha, and Therigatha; and the Patimokkha from the Vinaya. (That would still make the Buddhavacana portion of the Tipitaka roughly 30 out of 40 volumes.)

2. All of the above, plus the other books of the KN, plus the other Vinaya books, plus the Abhidhamma, but see them as written by later disciples of the Buddha, who may have been arahants and thus, still worthy to be included in the Canon.

3. All of the Pali Canon as Buddhavacana, but just have some differences in interpretation, where some Suttas are not taken literally because they were not meant to be in some cases (the Buddha specifically states not to take all teachings literally at AN 2.25).

I personally lean toward numbers 2 and 3 above.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:10 pm

I finally was back at my Tipitaka library this past weekend and so had the opportunity to look up the exact passages as translated by the Pali Text Society:

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great informed the Order, saying: 'Your reverences, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order I could question Upali on discipline.' Then the venerable Upali informed the Order, saying: 'Honorable sirs, the Order listen to me . . . "

And then the Patimokkha of the Vinaya was recited.

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great informed the Order saying: 'Honored sirs, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order I could question Ananda about dhamma.' Then the venerable Ananada informed the Order saying: 'Honored sirs, let the Order listen to me. If it seems right to the Order, I, questioned on the dhamma by the venerable Kassapa the Great, could answer . . . "

And then Kassapa questions Ananda on the first two chapters of the Digha Nikaya and after that we have:

"Then the venerable Kassapa the Great questioned the venerable Ananda as to the provenance of the Samannaphala and he questioned him as to the individual. In this same way he questioned him about the five Nikayas. Constantly, questioned, the venerable Ananda answered."

Vinaya, Cullavagga XI

My emphasis in bold above, notice how that sentence appears to be a summarizing statement, stating all of the rest that was recited at the First Council.

At least from the Canonical account (Tipitaka), there appears to be no indication that the Abhidhamma was recited at the First Council.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby cooran » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:40 pm

Hello all,

From an old thread by RobertIK:

The Attahasalini (expositor) p32
"Which is the Khuddaka Nikaya? The whole of the Vinaya-pitaka, Abhidhamma pitaka and the fifteen divisions excluding the four nikayas" p35 "thus as rehearsed at the [first]council the Abhidhamma is a
Pitaka by Pitaka classification, khuddaka -nikaya by Nikaya classification, veyyakarana by part-classification and constitues two or three thousand units of text by classification of textual units"

Majjhima Nikaya
Mahagosingha sutta
"the talk of two Bhikkhus on the Abhidhamma, each asking and answering the other without faltering is in accord with the Dhamma"

Gulissaani Sutta (M 69)
> aaraññikenaavuso, bhikkhunaa abhidhamme abhivinaye yogo kara.niiyo
> "Friends, by a bhikkhu living the forest effort ought to be made in abhidhamma and abhivinaya"

Vinaya pitaka
"If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another saying -'pray study the suttas or gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards learn the vinaya' there is no offense"
Vinaya iv 344

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... ssage/3350

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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