tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:02 am

christopher::: wrote:
Manapa wrote:at the moment I am trying to practice restraint in speach, only saying what I think is necessary or of some value (even if it seams silly :tongue: ), and trying to not engage in agressive discussions, which can be a problem particularly on the net.

I am also trying to be honest with myself more, reflecting on what personal narative I am building and how true it is to me as a person conventually, and what my goal is.

for me it has been a trying few weeks and one I am sure will shape the future in a way I may not like when I get there, there has been anger, depression, drink, lack of heedfulness and mindfulness and other unworthy actions in the last few weeks which have not been useful to my circumstances.


Sounds like its been a tough few weeks for you, Manapa. Sorry to hear that. Do you feel there is a relationship between your efforts to restrain your speech, your self reflection, and then the anger, depression and lack of heedfulness you are experiencing?

This is something i've heard from others and have also experienced. You start to make efforts at changing your behavior, at self-restraint, and feel like crap.

Do you find any of pink trike's ideas helpful?

it is because of my actions and behaviour, the lack of mindfulness etc that I am making more of an effort, I allowed my mind to rule itself so I am dealing with the consequenses!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Postby christopher::: » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:41 am

Hi Manapa.

Manapa wrote:
..it is because of my actions and behaviour, the lack of mindfulness etc that I am making more of an effort, I allowed my mind to rule itself so I am dealing with the consequenses!


It sounds like you've generated some guilt or unhappiness about this though. No? Cause if you do those "unpleasant mindstates" just lead to feeling worse, generating unpleasant thoughts, which can often make it harder to approach new situations more calmly and mindfully.

I don't know if that fits with your experience.

Guy wrote:Hi Christopher,

I find the most useful way of dealing with sensual desire is to reflect on the drawbacks of indulging in those desires. If I am looking at the drawbacks, it is impossible for me to simultaneously be looking at the attractive aspects of the object of desire. I still face desire every day and sometimes I do indulge, but I think I am heading gradually towards a more and more pure way of life. Mindfulness helps me somewhat to note "desire arising" and "desire passing away", but in my personal experience the best method has been to think about "well, what are going to be the negative consequences of engaging in this? IS the short-term pleasure really worth the long-term cost?" and in some cases Mara wins but I find that over time I am listening to him less and less and learning his tricks.

With Metta,

Guy


That's excellent, Guy. Yeah, i've found that works well. But it's not always a quick or easy approach. I gave up smoking this way, focusing on the negative consequences. Also, with over-eating and alcohol, being mindful of the consequences has worked. But not always. Someone puts out a box of donuts on the table, or offers me a beer on a hot day, its very very hard to say no...

The pull at any moment, of a temptation, can be quite powerful. The calmer my mind, the happier and more peaceful i'm feeling, the easier it is to resist...
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:02 am

Greetings Christopher:::,

christopher::: wrote:It sounds like you've generated some guilt or unhappiness about this though. No? Cause if you do those "unpleasant mindstates" just lead to feeling worse, generating unpleasant thoughts, which can often make it harder to approach new situations more calmly and mindfully.

I don't know if that fits with your experience.


If you wish to learn more in this area, I would recommend reading...

The Guardians Of The World - Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_23.html

A tiny extract of which is here...

The Buddha points to two mental qualities as the underlying safeguards of morality, thus as the protectors of both the individual and society as a whole. These two qualities are called in Pali hiri and ottappa. Hiri is an innate sense of shame over moral transgression; ottappa is moral dread, fear of the results of wrongdoing. The Buddha calls these two states the bright guardians of the world (sukka lokapala). He gives them this designation because as long as these two states prevail in people's hearts the moral standards of the world remain intact, while when their influence wanes the human world falls into unabashed promiscuity and violence, becoming almost indistinguishable from the animal realm (Itiv. 42).


Note the different here between what is being promoted versus something like "Catholic guilt"

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:50 am

Hi Christopher,
christopher::: wrote:Hi Manapa.

Manapa wrote:
..it is because of my actions and behaviour, the lack of mindfulness etc that I am making more of an effort, I allowed my mind to rule itself so I am dealing with the consequenses!


It sounds like you've generated some guilt or unhappiness about this though. No? Cause if you do those "unpleasant mindstates" just lead to feeling worse, generating unpleasant thoughts, which can often make it harder to approach new situations more calmly and mindfully.

I don't know if that fits with your experience.

In a way it does, but I wouldn't say guilt or unhappiness was generated over the general whole of the period, certain part resulted in depression which caused guilt due to not preforming as well at work as I should of, but the two aren't related as in feeling guilty because I was depressed, althought they have played a role together they are two seperate things, which are the result of previously mentioned actions, and conversations which have happened recently and been repeated over the past year. I'll pm you with some more details if you wish but not comfortable mentioning this on an open forum.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Postby christopher::: » Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:05 am

No need to go into further details, unless you wish to talk more. I'm always available by PM, though i doubt i'm wise enough to offer any valuable advice beyond, "you can work thru this!"

It's the "how" we work thru our tangled emotions and thoughts that i'm still seeking to understand with greater clarity, thus this conversation we're all having.

with metta,

:group:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Postby pink_trike » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:29 am

christopher::: wrote:It's the "how" we work thru our tangled emotions and thoughts that i'm still seeking to understand with greater clarity, thus this conversation we're all having.
:


I saw a great teeshirt the other day that said "We don't have to believe everything we think". We don't have to work through every tangled emotion and thought...we can give ourselves a break by understanding that thoughts and emotions are frequently just excretions or like the dreams we have at night. All that stimulation and sensation we take in during our wacky modern life is seeping back out. We can just neutrally observe all the excretions and periodic vomiting...watch them arise and fall away, like waves. Release them and let them appear and disappear without getting all grabby with them. We're not our thoughts or emotions.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Postby christopher::: » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:32 am

pink_trike wrote:
I saw a great teeshirt the other day that said "We don't have to believe everything we think". We don't have to work through every tangled emotion and thought...we can give ourselves a break by understanding that thoughts and emotions are frequently just excretions or like the dreams we have at night. All that stimulation and sensation we take in during our wacky modern life is seeping back out. We can just neutrally observe all the excretions and periodic vomiting...watch them arise and fall away, like waves. Release them and let them appear and disappear without getting all grabby with them. We're not our thoughts or emotions.


Riiight! In a sense, "we" are not anything we believe ourselves to be, or that our minds experience....

All this ties up with wisdom, compassion and emptiness, doesn't it?

:smile:

"Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche was giving teachings on relative and ultimate bodhicitta. Bodhicitta literally means "awakened heart." On the relative level it is compassion, expressed in the bodhisattva vow to save all beings; it is the aspiration to awaken from ignorance in order to live one's life for the benefit of all. On the ultimate level, bodhicitta goes beyond the concepts of self and other. It is the empty, aware nature of the mind itself. As Rinpoche was teaching about these two aspects-- compassion and emptiness-- there was an unexpected moment of insight as I realized that the relative level is the expression of the ultimate: compassion is the activity of emptiness. Suddenly the great and seemingly impossible burden of "someone" (me!) having to save all beings disolved into the great expansive arena of selfless compassionate action. Compassionate action is the natural responsiveness of awareness free of self: no one there "doing" anything."

from One Dharma, by Joseph Goldstein
(shared by bori recently, elsewhere)

:heart:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Postby pink_trike » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:12 am

christopher::: wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
I saw a great teeshirt the other day that said "We don't have to believe everything we think". We don't have to work through every tangled emotion and thought...we can give ourselves a break by understanding that thoughts and emotions are frequently just excretions or like the dreams we have at night. All that stimulation and sensation we take in during our wacky modern life is seeping back out. We can just neutrally observe all the excretions and periodic vomiting...watch them arise and fall away, like waves. Release them and let them appear and disappear without getting all grabby with them. We're not our thoughts or emotions.


All this ties up with wisdom, compassion and emptiness, doesn't it?


Yes, there's a beautiful logic and flow that brings order to all of those. For me, this Tibetan Bon essence teaching summarizes the logic that imo is found in all traditions of Buddhism also (although wording varies from tradition to tradition:

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen, 8th century Tibet

1. Vision is Mind

Everything we see, feel, taste, touch, hear, absorb, vibrate with, experience, all circumstances...is all Mind - we can call it our karmic vision. It's our own unique experience of everything, which for most all of us is inaccurate...a projection based on ignorance.

2. Mind is Empty

Our karmic vision is inaccurate because it is clouded by our attachment-fueled reactivity that demands and imagines solidity and certainty. If we look carefully at everything inside and outside of us including our mind we begin to understand that it is all dynamic, insubstantial, conditioned appearances...empty of all our projections.

3. Emptiness is Clear Light

Clear refers to emptiness, and light refers to awareness. Clear Light is used here to mean clarity. Through our practice we become aware of the emptiness of our projections - we experience clarity. Clarity means "clear" as in when we understand something, it's clear to us. Our confusion is cleared away, and we have the sense of the dark walls of confusion dissolving into light as if the sun returns or a light bulb goes on...aha!. When we clear the dirty window of dirt, light enters. When we empty a cluttered room, it is cleared and open and there is spaciousness and light. The same with our mind...when we clear out our projections that clog our vision, when we're clear that our projections are false, we recognize emptiness and spaciousness in everything that arises in our karmic vision.

4. Clear Light is Union.

Clarity is union. There is no separateness or distinction between emptiness (the space-iousness that arises when our projections are cleared away, made clear, emptied) and our awareness (the light-ness that clarity gives birth to). They are united, they are one.

In this union of emptiness and awareness (clarity) we see how all living beings bump and scrape around in the projection-cluttered confused darkness throughout our entire lives as we react in hunger and fear to a projected imagined solidity that is a ghost of our own making - this in turn opens our heart as we recognize the extent of the endless dissatisfaction that our lack of clarity generates repeatedly with all our unskillful efforts to find peace, and we experience authentic compassion rather than mundane reactive compassion for all living beings. We understand that only clarity (the awareness and experience of emptiness) will bring living beings relief, peace, contentment, space to breathe.

5. Union is Great Bliss

When we recognize this union of emptiness and awareness and our Great Heart arises, we finally exhale and let go of all our striving to fix, and we let go of our incessant urge to "become" because we see that there is no "becoming", there is only space and awareness. We are freed from our "self"-ishness because we known that there is no "self". We are content, and authentic (not mundane, conditioned) happiness arises. This is wisdom. This is bliss. This is when we become effective because we are fully awake.

Summary:

Our vision is projection
Our projection is empty.
Awareness of the emptiness of our projections is clarity
Clarity is re-integration with the whole of experience - just.what.is.
Re-integration with the Whole results in wisdom, contentment, and happiness.

And then...

Great Bliss is none other than Vision.

---

That's how I understand it.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Postby Jechbi » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:42 am

tiltbillings wrote:Owners of their kamma are beings, heirs of their kamma, kamma is their womb from which they are born, their kamma is their friend, their refuge. Whatever kamma they perform, good or bad, there of they will be the heirs. M 135 iii 206.

You know, if you read the whole sutta, it's about the cause and condition why human beings are seen to be inferior and superior. It's about what kinds of things lead to this or that type of life in samsara. That's what "refuge" means in the context of this sutta: recognizing that "the way that leads to low birth makes people low-born, the way that leads to high birth makes people high-born," etc.

Also from the same sutta:
Here, student, some man or woman is of an angry and irritable character; even when critised a little, he is offended, becomes angry, hostile, and resentful, and displays anger, hate, and bitterness. Because of undertaking such action ... he reappears in a state of deprivation ... But if instead he comes back to the human state, then wherever he is reborn he is ugly.

I think we can all recognize ourselves in that description from time to time. To answer the OP, I agree with Tilt that our present actions will condition the forms dukkha takes as long as we are bound to samsara.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:23 am

Jechbi wrote: To answer the OP, I agree with Tilt that our present actions will condition the forms dukkha takes as long as we are bound to samsara.


And our actions, our choices - as they unfold moment to moment - can also be the basis for our freedom from samsara, thus my signature line:
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: tangled up in dukkha, breaking free

Postby christopher::: » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:36 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Jechbi wrote: To answer the OP, I agree with Tilt that our present actions will condition the forms dukkha takes as long as we are bound to samsara.


And our actions, our choices - as they unfold moment to moment - can also be the basis for our freedom from samsara, thus my signature line:

"This being is bound to samsara, karma is his means for going beyond."
SN I, 38.



Yessssss, definitely! :smile: It all comes down to our "reactiveness" to each moment, our responses to experience, situations... Cultivating calmness, peace, compassion- positive or neutral mindstates, we are less likely to act in ways that create further dukkha and suffering...

Less likely to "go with" reactive thoughts, emotions, desires and actions that are only going to lead to the construction of samsara, in our experience?

:juggling:

1. Vision is Mind

Everything we see, feel, taste, touch, hear, absorb, vibrate with, experience, all circumstances...is all Mind - we can call it our karmic vision. It's our own unique experience of everything, which for most all of us is inaccurate...a projection based on ignorance.

2. Mind is Empty

Our karmic vision is inaccurate because it is clouded by our attachment-fueled reactivity that demands and imagines solidity and certainty. If we look carefully at everything inside and outside of us including our mind we begin to understand that it is all dynamic, insubstantial, conditioned appearances...empty of all our projections.


:namaste:
pink_trike wrote:
I saw a great teeshirt the other day that said "We don't have to believe everything we think". We don't have to work through every tangled emotion and thought...we can give ourselves a break by understanding that thoughts and emotions are frequently just excretions or like the dreams we have at night. All that stimulation and sensation we take in during our wacky modern life is seeping back out. We can just neutrally observe all the excretions and periodic vomiting...watch them arise and fall away, like waves. Release them and let them appear and disappear without getting all grabby with them. We're not our thoughts or emotions.


The Tibetan Bon view was excellent, Jeff, but for some reason i really dig your Californian street version...

:bow:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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