Pali Canon

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Re: Pali Canon

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:07 pm

Greetings,

clw_uk wrote:Which is the oldest part of the sutta pitaka?


It's very much a sutta-by-sutta affair... but the following is a very rough guide... SN, AN/MN, DN, KN.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:03 am

Hi Craig,

clw_uk wrote:Which is the oldest part of the sutta pitaka?


Theravada tradition holds that it was all recited at the First Council, excepting only those suttas taught by arahant disciples some time after the Buddha's passing. So, for those who accept this view obviously the oldest part of the Sutta Piṭaka will be that which the Buddha taught first: his speech to Upaka on the way to Sarnath and then the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

Modern Pali scholars, on the other hand, propose a variety of theories about the oldest stratum. Some argue for the Aṭṭhakavagga and Parāyanavagga of the Suttanipāta, others for certain suttas from the Majjhima Nikāya, others for an hypothesized proto-Saṃyutta Nikāya, etc. etc.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:21 am

Hi Dhammanando
Dhammanando wrote:obviously the oldest part of the Sutta Piṭaka will be that which the Buddha taught first: his speech to Upaka on the way to Sarnath and then the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.


I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:40 am

Hi Manapa,

Manapa wrote:I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?


It's true that the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is classed as the Buddha's first teaching of Dhamma (dhammadesanā). However, before this, while he was on his way to the Deer Park, the Buddha met the ājīvaka Upaka and the following dialogue ensured:

    Upaka:

    "Your faculties are serene, friend; the complexion of your skin is clear and bright. Under whom have you gone forth? Or who is your teacher? Or whose Dhamma do you confess?"

    The Buddha:

    "I am an All-transcender, an All-knower,
    Unsullied by all things, renouncing all,
    By craving's ceasing freed. And this I owe
    To my own wisdom. To whom should I concede it?

    "I have no teacher, and my like
    Exists nowhere in all the world
    With all its gods, because I have
    No person for my counterpart.

    "I am the Teacher in the world
    Without a peer, accomplished, too,
    And I alone am fully awakened,
    Quenched, whose fires all extinct.

    "I go to Kāsi's city now
    To set the Wheel of Dhamma
    In motion: in a blindfold world
    I go to beat the Deathless Drum."

    Upaka:

    "By your claims, friend, you are a Universal Victor."

    The Buddha:

    "The victors like me, Upaka,
    Are those whose taints are quite exhausted;
    I have vanquished all states of evil:
    It is for that I am a Victor."

    When this was said, the ājīvaka Upaka remarked: "May it be so, friend"; shaking his head, he took a side track and departed.
    (Vin.i.8; MN.i.170-1. trans. from Ñāṇamoli's Life of the Buddha)

However, the above exchange is not viewed as a dhammadesanā, but rather as a vāsanābhāgiya sutta, i.e. a discourse aimed at establishing someone on a wholesome course. In Upaka's case this bore fruit later, when, after contracting a miserable marriage, he went forth and ended his life as an anāgāmin.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:07 am

Hi Dhammanando
Thanks!
I was going to add is it something to do with the difference in style such as one being a teaching the other a conversation, or something of the like that poped in my mind at the time!
With Metta
Manapa
Dhammanando wrote:Hi Manapa,

Manapa wrote:I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?


It's true that the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is classed as the Buddha's first teaching of Dhamma (dhammadesanā). However, before this, while he was on his way to the Deer Park, the Buddha met the ājīvaka Upaka and the following dialogue ensured:

    Upaka:

    "Your faculties are serene, friend; the complexion of your skin is clear and bright. Under whom have you gone forth? Or who is your teacher? Or whose Dhamma do you confess?"

    The Buddha:

    "I am an All-transcender, an All-knower,
    Unsullied by all things, renouncing all,
    By craving's ceasing freed. And this I owe
    To my own wisdom. To whom should I concede it?

    "I have no teacher, and my like
    Exists nowhere in all the world
    With all its gods, because I have
    No person for my counterpart.

    "I am the Teacher in the world
    Without a peer, accomplished, too,
    And I alone am fully awakened,
    Quenched, whose fires all extinct.

    "I go to Kāsi's city now
    To set the Wheel of Dhamma
    In motion: in a blindfold world
    I go to beat the Deathless Drum."

    Upaka:

    "By your claims, friend, you are a Universal Victor."

    The Buddha:

    "The victors like me, Upaka,
    Are those whose taints are quite exhausted;
    I have vanquished all states of evil:
    It is for that I am a Victor."

    When this was said, the ājīvaka Upaka remarked: "May it be so, friend"; shaking his head, he took a side track and departed.
    (Vin.i.8; MN.i.170-1. trans. from Ñāṇamoli's Life of the Buddha)

However, the above exchange is not viewed as a dhammadesanā, but rather as a vāsanābhāgiya sutta, i.e. a discourse aimed at establishing someone on a wholesome course. In Upaka's case this bore fruit later, when, after contracting a miserable marriage, he went forth and ended his life as an anāgāmin.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:15 am

Hi Manapa,

Manapa wrote:I was going to add is it something to do with the difference in style such as one being a teaching the other a conversation, or something of the like that poped in my mind at the time!


The difference lies in the outcome of the teaching. A vāsanābhāgiya sutta, like that given to Upaka, doesn't result in the arising of the Dhamma eye (i.e. the attainment of stream-entry or higher) in the listener, nor is it intended to. Any sutta where the Buddha limits his teaching to dāna, sīla, heavenly rebirth etc. is classed as vāsanābhāgiya.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:38 pm

Thank you for repying to my post :smile: , sorry for late reply forgot to come back and check this thread :rolleye:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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