where to go from here?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

It depends on how you define love, doesn't it?

At one end of the spectrum there's the brahma-vihara of metta... and at the other side there's lust... and love can mean anything (and often multiple places) along that spectrum.

Metta,
Retro.

[pink_trike]

For what it's worth, good teachers generally discourage people from making the kind of decision you're considering making when they find themselves in the kind of circumstances you're describing.

Whatever you decide, I wish you well...

[tiltbillings]

For what it's worth, good teachers generally discourage people from making the kind of decision you're considering making when they find themselves in the kind of circumstances you're describing.

Which is one of the better things said here.

[Ben]

Hi Tilt

I think it was Charles Bukowski who said Love is a mad dog from hell. Despite his drug and alcohol addled brain, I think he was onto something there.
I've also seen it written somewhere - another sentiment that I agree with - Love is the mother of misery. Better to find these truths out for ourselves, early, than to continue to live in delusion.
Take care Manapa!

Ben

What does your wife say about that?

There are some things, dear Tilt, that are best not mentioned. Otherwise, its to the dreaded counselling couch or dog-house I go!
As a psychologist, I think she agrees with me that many forms of love border on the pathological. In fact, a lot of her work dealing with adolescents is in relation to the negative impacts of blooming romantic love.

Well, just having a small bit of teasing of Ben,

Tilt, you are such a tease! Life just wouldn't be the same without a little tease from Mr Billings!

It depends on how you define love, doesn't it?

Perhaps. If you are talking about romantic love, then it is no more than a sankhara.
We live in cultures that reify romantic love but as Buddhists, we should be looking at it through the prism of vipassana, seeing it for what it actually is. Love is nothing but coalescing dhammas.
That is not to say that it can't be useful or positive in providing a glue in relationships, but it is still a sankhara and one that is not exempt from ti-lakkhana. It is impermanent, it is not-self, and any clinging or attachment certainly does produce intense dukkha. Yet, time and time again, we (collectively speaking) fool ourselves that our love is eternal, never ending and part of us.
If you are talking about the brahma-viharas - they're completely different. They're cetasikas.
now that I've opened yet another can of worms, off I go!
Kind regards

Ben

[christopher:::]

For what it's worth, good teachers generally discourage people from making the kind of decision you're considering making when they find themselves in the kind of circumstances you're describing.

Which is one of the better things said here.

I agree.

If you are talking about romantic love, then it is no more than a sankhara. We live in cultures that reify romantic love but as Buddhists, we should be looking at it through the prism of vipassana, seeing it for what it actually is. Love is nothing but coalescing dhammas. That is not to say that it can't be useful or positive in providing a glue in relationships, but it is still a sankhara and one that is not exempt from ti-lakkhana. It is impermanent, it is not-self, and any clinging or attachment certainly does produce intense dukkha. Yet, time and time again, we (collectively speaking) fool ourselves that our love is eternal, never ending and part of us. If you are talking about the brahma-viharas - they're completely different. They're cetasikas. now that I've opened yet another can of worms, off I go!

But that's just it, isn't it? If we are not talking about the brahma-viharas, are we really talking about love?

[Ben]

Again, I say they are different. Love, as it is 'practiced' (for want of a better word), or experienced by the vast majority of humanity is, as I said, a sankhara. Its a combination of thoughts, sensations, mind-states that coalesce to give the impression of the state of 'love'. The dhammas that constitute love are not necessarily wholesome, including lust, attachment and aversion (of love's ending). Love might feel good, but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily wholesome or good. On the other hand, metta is not characterised by lust, attachment or aversion and it can only arise when those mental factors are not present. Its a different kettle of fish, Christopher. In fact I contend its not even on the same spectrum.
Kind regards

Ben

[christopher:::]

Hi Ben. I don't disagree about the differences, just tend to think the brahama viharas are practiced rather widely around the world... mothers, fathers and their kids, grandkids and grandparents, long married couples, solid friendships, positive teacher/student situations, all good relationships.

If it's a good relationship, if there is more happiness in your relations then pain, that's a sign something right is going on...

Just my personal opinion- related though to something rather wise that you said a little while back, lol...

[tiltbillings]

Hi Ben. I don't disagree about the differences, just tend to think the brahama viharas are practiced rather widely around the world... mothers, fathers and their kids, grandkids and grandparents, long married couples, solid friendships, positive teacher/student situations, all good relationships.

Maybe, but maybe not as much as you optimistically think.

[Individual]

ok so as some of you may know I was seeking to become a bhikkhu a while ago, but chose to get into a relationship with someone I fell inlove with and have been living with for over a year now.
give me some suggestions of places to continue my "Quest" as she no longer want to be with me for what ever reason, and I don't really want to be here in this situation with nowhere else to go locally to live while I look.

EDIT - forgot to mention would be better if the place was in the UK

Be a lay teacher in the west... There's lots of those and certainly some groups you could help volunteer for.

[christopher:::]

Hi Ben. I don't disagree about the differences, just tend to think the brahama viharas are practiced rather widely around the world... mothers, fathers and their kids, grandkids and grandparents, long married couples, solid friendships, positive teacher/student situations, all good relationships.

Maybe, but maybe not as much as you optimistically think.

Maybe not, indeed. Impossible to really know, for sure.

[tiltbillings]

Hi Ben. I don't disagree about the differences, just tend to think the brahama viharas are practiced rather widely around the world... mothers, fathers and their kids, grandkids and grandparents, long married couples, solid friendships, positive teacher/student situations, all good relationships.

Maybe, but maybe not as much as you optimistically think.

Maybe not, indeed. Impossible to really know, for sure.

If that is the case, then you really cannot claim what you claimed.

The brahmaviharas are practiced in a particular context, understood in a particular context, which kind of shifts them a bit out of the ordinary. Certainly the love a parent for a child can be a basis for the practice of metta, but again a bit of a different context within which it is practiced and understood.

[christopher:::]

We're veering waaaay off topic, Tilt, concerning Manapa's future. And to say "i tend to think" is not a claim....

[Cittasanto]

This was going to be the last go! I had decided when this relationship started that if it didn't work out that there would be no more after and the worldly life would be put to rest, I was going to pursue this further and probably be living at a monestary now if it hadn't been for the relationship.

Okay in that case, start growing some hair, so at least there will be something for them to symbolically shave off.

beard and all is back had to trim it the other day, doesn't take long.
but pink this isn't a rash decission, this was a decission taken a while ago (about 2 years+ ?) getting into a relationship was something that happened.

[Cittasanto]

ok so as some of you may know I was seeking to become a bhikkhu a while ago, but chose to get into a relationship with someone I fell inlove with and have been living with for over a year now.
give me some suggestions of places to continue my "Quest" as she no longer want to be with me for what ever reason, and I don't really want to be here in this situation with nowhere else to go locally to live while I look.

EDIT - forgot to mention would be better if the place was in the UK

Be a lay teacher in the west... There's lots of those and certainly some groups you could help volunteer for.

Good Idea, but I dont think that I am suitable to teach just yet

[Individual]

ok so as some of you may know I was seeking to become a bhikkhu a while ago, but chose to get into a relationship with someone I fell inlove with and have been living with for over a year now.
give me some suggestions of places to continue my "Quest" as she no longer want to be with me for what ever reason, and I don't really want to be here in this situation with nowhere else to go locally to live while I look.

EDIT - forgot to mention would be better if the place was in the UK

Be a lay teacher in the west... There's lots of those and certainly some groups you could help volunteer for.

Good Idea, but I dont think that I am suitable to teach just yet

So, what's the point of ordaining? A layperson can choose to live an ascetic lifestyle. Ordination is simply a formality or a means of developing a career in spiritual guidance. If you feel that exploring a romantic relationship would be a good thing in your life, go for it.

DN 21

When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of joy is not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of joy is to be pursued.

And even if this is a relationship partially founded upon lust or attachment (which I think accounts for most, if not all romantic relationships), just remember the danger and the cost.