Greetings,
It depends on how you define love, doesn't it?
At one end of the spectrum there's the brahma-vihara of metta... and at the other side there's lust... and love can mean anything (and often multiple places) along that spectrum.
Metta,
Retro.
where to go from here?
- retrofuturist
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Re: where to go from here?
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- pink_trike
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Re: where to go from here?
For what it's worth, good teachers generally discourage people from making the kind of decision you're considering making when they find themselves in the kind of circumstances you're describing.
Whatever you decide, I wish you well...
Whatever you decide, I wish you well...
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
- tiltbillings
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Re: where to go from here?
Which is one of the better things said here.pink_trike wrote:For what it's worth, good teachers generally discourage people from making the kind of decision you're considering making when they find themselves in the kind of circumstances you're describing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: where to go from here?
Hi Tilt
As a psychologist, I think she agrees with me that many forms of love border on the pathological. In fact, a lot of her work dealing with adolescents is in relation to the negative impacts of blooming romantic love.
We live in cultures that reify romantic love but as Buddhists, we should be looking at it through the prism of vipassana, seeing it for what it actually is. Love is nothing but coalescing dhammas.
That is not to say that it can't be useful or positive in providing a glue in relationships, but it is still a sankhara and one that is not exempt from ti-lakkhana. It is impermanent, it is not-self, and any clinging or attachment certainly does produce intense dukkha. Yet, time and time again, we (collectively speaking) fool ourselves that our love is eternal, never ending and part of us.
If you are talking about the brahma-viharas - they're completely different. They're cetasikas.
now that I've opened yet another can of worms, off I go!
Kind regards
Ben
There are some things, dear Tilt, that are best not mentioned. Otherwise, its to the dreaded counselling couch or dog-house I go!tiltbillings wrote:What does your wife say about that?Ben wrote:I think it was Charles Bukowski who said Love is a mad dog from hell. Despite his drug and alcohol addled brain, I think he was onto something there.
I've also seen it written somewhere - another sentiment that I agree with - Love is the mother of misery. Better to find these truths out for ourselves, early, than to continue to live in delusion.
Take care Manapa!
Ben
As a psychologist, I think she agrees with me that many forms of love border on the pathological. In fact, a lot of her work dealing with adolescents is in relation to the negative impacts of blooming romantic love.
Tilt, you are such a tease! Life just wouldn't be the same without a little tease from Mr Billings!Well, just having a small bit of teasing of Ben,
Perhaps. If you are talking about romantic love, then it is no more than a sankhara.retro wrote:It depends on how you define love, doesn't it?
We live in cultures that reify romantic love but as Buddhists, we should be looking at it through the prism of vipassana, seeing it for what it actually is. Love is nothing but coalescing dhammas.
That is not to say that it can't be useful or positive in providing a glue in relationships, but it is still a sankhara and one that is not exempt from ti-lakkhana. It is impermanent, it is not-self, and any clinging or attachment certainly does produce intense dukkha. Yet, time and time again, we (collectively speaking) fool ourselves that our love is eternal, never ending and part of us.
If you are talking about the brahma-viharas - they're completely different. They're cetasikas.
now that I've opened yet another can of worms, off I go!
Kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- christopher:::
- Posts: 1327
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Re: where to go from here?
I agree.tiltbillings wrote:Which is one of the better things said here.pink_trike wrote:For what it's worth, good teachers generally discourage people from making the kind of decision you're considering making when they find themselves in the kind of circumstances you're describing.
But that's just it, isn't it? If we are not talking about the brahma-viharas, are we really talking about love?Ben wrote: If you are talking about romantic love, then it is no more than a sankhara. We live in cultures that reify romantic love but as Buddhists, we should be looking at it through the prism of vipassana, seeing it for what it actually is. Love is nothing but coalescing dhammas. That is not to say that it can't be useful or positive in providing a glue in relationships, but it is still a sankhara and one that is not exempt from ti-lakkhana. It is impermanent, it is not-self, and any clinging or attachment certainly does produce intense dukkha. Yet, time and time again, we (collectively speaking) fool ourselves that our love is eternal, never ending and part of us. If you are talking about the brahma-viharas - they're completely different. They're cetasikas. now that I've opened yet another can of worms, off I go!
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Re: where to go from here?
Again, I say they are different. Love, as it is 'practiced' (for want of a better word), or experienced by the vast majority of humanity is, as I said, a sankhara. Its a combination of thoughts, sensations, mind-states that coalesce to give the impression of the state of 'love'. The dhammas that constitute love are not necessarily wholesome, including lust, attachment and aversion (of love's ending). Love might feel good, but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily wholesome or good. On the other hand, metta is not characterised by lust, attachment or aversion and it can only arise when those mental factors are not present. Its a different kettle of fish, Christopher. In fact I contend its not even on the same spectrum.
Kind regards
Ben
Kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- christopher:::
- Posts: 1327
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am
Re: where to go from here?
Hi Ben. I don't disagree about the differences, just tend to think the brahama viharas are practiced rather widely around the world... mothers, fathers and their kids, grandkids and grandparents, long married couples, solid friendships, positive teacher/student situations, all good relationships.
If it's a good relationship, if there is more happiness in your relations then pain, that's a sign something right is going on...
Just my personal opinion- related though to something rather wise that you said a little while back, lol...
If it's a good relationship, if there is more happiness in your relations then pain, that's a sign something right is going on...
Just my personal opinion- related though to something rather wise that you said a little while back, lol...
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
- tiltbillings
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Re: where to go from here?
Maybe, but maybe not as much as you optimistically think.christopher::: wrote:Hi Ben. I don't disagree about the differences, just tend to think the brahama viharas are practiced rather widely around the world... mothers, fathers and their kids, grandkids and grandparents, long married couples, solid friendships, positive teacher/student situations, all good relationships.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: where to go from here?
Be a lay teacher in the west... There's lots of those and certainly some groups you could help volunteer for.Manapa wrote:ok so as some of you may know I was seeking to become a bhikkhu a while ago, but chose to get into a relationship with someone I fell inlove with and have been living with for over a year now.
give me some suggestions of places to continue my "Quest" as she no longer want to be with me for what ever reason, and I don't really want to be here in this situation with nowhere else to go locally to live while I look.
EDIT - forgot to mention would be better if the place was in the UK
- christopher:::
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Re: where to go from here?
Maybe not, indeed. Impossible to really know, for sure.tiltbillings wrote:Maybe, but maybe not as much as you optimistically think.christopher::: wrote:Hi Ben. I don't disagree about the differences, just tend to think the brahama viharas are practiced rather widely around the world... mothers, fathers and their kids, grandkids and grandparents, long married couples, solid friendships, positive teacher/student situations, all good relationships.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
- tiltbillings
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Re: where to go from here?
If that is the case, then you really cannot claim what you claimed.christopher::: wrote:Maybe not, indeed. Impossible to really know, for sure.tiltbillings wrote:Maybe, but maybe not as much as you optimistically think.christopher::: wrote:Hi Ben. I don't disagree about the differences, just tend to think the brahama viharas are practiced rather widely around the world... mothers, fathers and their kids, grandkids and grandparents, long married couples, solid friendships, positive teacher/student situations, all good relationships.
The brahmaviharas are practiced in a particular context, understood in a particular context, which kind of shifts them a bit out of the ordinary. Certainly the love a parent for a child can be a basis for the practice of metta, but again a bit of a different context within which it is practiced and understood.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- christopher:::
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Re: where to go from here?
We're veering waaaay off topic, Tilt, concerning Manapa's future. And to say "i tend to think" is not a claim....
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
- Cittasanto
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Re: where to go from here?
beard and all is back had to trim it the other day, doesn't take long.TheDhamma wrote:Okay in that case, start growing some hair, so at least there will be something for them to symbolically shave off.Manapa wrote: This was going to be the last go! I had decided when this relationship started that if it didn't work out that there would be no more after and the worldly life would be put to rest, I was going to pursue this further and probably be living at a monestary now if it hadn't been for the relationship.
but pink this isn't a rash decission, this was a decission taken a while ago (about 2 years+ ?) getting into a relationship was something that happened.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
- Cittasanto
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Re: where to go from here?
Good Idea, but I dont think that I am suitable to teach just yetIndividual wrote:Be a lay teacher in the west... There's lots of those and certainly some groups you could help volunteer for.Manapa wrote:ok so as some of you may know I was seeking to become a bhikkhu a while ago, but chose to get into a relationship with someone I fell inlove with and have been living with for over a year now.
give me some suggestions of places to continue my "Quest" as she no longer want to be with me for what ever reason, and I don't really want to be here in this situation with nowhere else to go locally to live while I look.
EDIT - forgot to mention would be better if the place was in the UK
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
-
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Re: where to go from here?
So, what's the point of ordaining? A layperson can choose to live an ascetic lifestyle. Ordination is simply a formality or a means of developing a career in spiritual guidance. If you feel that exploring a romantic relationship would be a good thing in your life, go for it.Manapa wrote:Good Idea, but I dont think that I am suitable to teach just yetIndividual wrote:Be a lay teacher in the west... There's lots of those and certainly some groups you could help volunteer for.Manapa wrote:ok so as some of you may know I was seeking to become a bhikkhu a while ago, but chose to get into a relationship with someone I fell inlove with and have been living with for over a year now.
give me some suggestions of places to continue my "Quest" as she no longer want to be with me for what ever reason, and I don't really want to be here in this situation with nowhere else to go locally to live while I look.
EDIT - forgot to mention would be better if the place was in the UK
DN 21
And even if this is a relationship partially founded upon lust or attachment (which I think accounts for most, if not all romantic relationships), just remember the danger and the cost.When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of joy is not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of joy is to be pursued.