Refuge in Oneself

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Refuge in Oneself

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Hi all,

I'm returning to DW with my tail between my legs after having argued a bit with Tilt about the idea of taking refuge in oneself. :D
I just read this from HH 17th Karmapa:
How we come down to the real meaning, the whole point, of what I am saying here. It is that I am my own refuge, I am my own protector. Nobody can actually give me protection. I must help myself by clearly understanding what I have to take up and what I have to get rid of. I have to find this out myself and then do it, and that the true practice of Dharma. It is through the practice of Dharma that I create the causes and conditions for my own happiness and for achieving wisdom, compassion, and the ability to help others. Entire article
And there we have it. I tried to find the previous thread where Tilt brought it up and I can't find it, but I think the idea is worthy of its own thread.

Does anyone else find this interesting? When I first read about taking refuge in my own self, I thought that sounded so wild! I mean, me?? I'm the deluded one. But from a certain angle this makes sense, too. Any thoughts, opinions, or suttas are appreciated.

Best,
Drolma
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retrofuturist
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Drolma,

Perhaps it was this topic?

Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2196" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Either way, here's something I posted in that topic which is also relevant to yours!
Something I read at lunchtime from Ven K. Sri Dhammananda in his introductory text "How To Practice Buddhism".

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ddhism.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Faith alone cannot purify the mind to remove doubts so as to help us understand the truth. People can uphold a wrong belief without analyzing it or without having any sense of reasoning because they are afraid that if they do, they might lose their faith and thus also lose their chance to gain salvation.

The Buddha's advice on the other hand is, before accepting any belief as the truth, it is for us to study, investigate, practice and see the results for ourselves in the end. When we come to a conclusion after having made a thorough analytical investigation, we gain confidence in the truth, as we have satisfactorily verified it for ourselves. By realizing the truth ourselves, we naturally gain confidence. This is neither mere faith nor belief but realization. The Buddha's advice is neither to believe nor reject anything at first hand. As we have human minds to enable us to think soberly, we must therefore give a chance to our minds to think independently and understand things in the correct perspective.

We should not think that we just cannot understand. Some people who are very lazy to study a problem in depth, simply do not try to understand things as they really are and so seek the easy way out by just surrendering themselves to what the others say, because they have no self confidence in themsleves. A true Buddhist on the other hand has self-respect, knowing fully well that he is responsible for himself, his actions and his salvation. 'No one saves us but ourselves, the Buddha shows us the correct way'.
Strong words perhaps, but worth reflecting on.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Hi Retro,

Yes, that's the topic! Thanks. Wonderful words from Ven K. Sri Dhammananda. It really places the responsibility squarely where it belongs, doesn't it?
Thanks for reposting it here :)

Best,
Drolma
Last edited by Ngawang Drolma. on Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
kannada
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by kannada »

Refuge in Oneself
Hi Drolma,

Wouldn't this contradict the teaching of Anatta? Taking refuge in a 'self' that is nothing more than a utilisable misperception...

Best wishes

k
Just a view - nothing more...
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

kannada wrote:
Refuge in Oneself
Hi Drolma,

Wouldn't this contradict the teaching of Anatta? Taking refuge in a 'self' that is nothing more than a utilisable misperception...

Best wishes

k
Hi Kannada,

If you don't mind, I'll let the folks more experienced in Theravada reply first.
And if they don't, I'll give it a go :)

Best,
Drolma
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cooran
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

In the Dhammapada, the Buddha taught:

Dhammapada Verse 160 - Kumarakassapamatuttheri Vatthu

Atta hi attano natho
ko hi natho paro siya
attana hi sudantena
natham labhati dullabham.


Verse 160: One indeed is one's own refuge; how can others be a refuge to one? With oneself thoroughly tamed, one can attain a refuge (i.e., Arahatta Phala), which is so difficult to attain.
http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=160" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
kannada
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by kannada »

Ngawang Drolma wrote:
kannada wrote:
Refuge in Oneself
Hi Drolma,

Wouldn't this contradict the teaching of Anatta? Taking refuge in a 'self' that is nothing more than a utilisable misperception...

Best wishes

k
Hi Kannada,

If you don't mind, I'll let the folks more experienced in Theravada reply first.
And if they don't, I'll give it a go :)

Best,
Drolma
No need to reply, it just didn't make any sense to me.

No amount of explanations, regardless of how 'experienced' one is is going to turn anatta into atta...

I'll just sit in the peanut-gallery and watch the unfolding drama

Take care
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imagemarie
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by imagemarie »

kannada wrote:
Refuge in Oneself
Hi Drolma,

Wouldn't this contradict the teaching of Anatta? Taking refuge in a 'self' that is nothing more than a utilisable misperception...

Best wishes

k
So - "who" needs a refuge? :popcorn:

(should that be whom? :smile: )
kannada
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by kannada »

Imagemarie hi...

Exactly... Who(m) needs a refuge when there is no-one to shelter?

Best wishes

k
Just a view - nothing more...
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cooran
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by cooran »

And then there are the rest of us - just following what the Buddha taught, and the Sangha of Bhikkhus so faithfuly preserved:

33. "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.
"And how, Ananda, is a bhikkhu an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge?
34. "When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world; when he dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, the mind in the mind, and mental objects in mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; having the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge.
35. "Those bhikkhus of mine, Ananda, who now or after I am gone, abide as an island unto themselves, as a refuge unto themselves, seeking no other refuge; having the Dhamma as their island and refuge, seeking no other refuge: it is they who will become the highest, 20 if they have the desire to learn."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
kannada
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by kannada »

Chris wrote:And then there are the rest of us - just following what the Buddha taught, and the Sangha of Bhikkhus so faithfuly preserved:
Hi Chris,

If I am not mistaken the Buddha also taught Anatta, the bedrock of Buddha Dharma, which the Sangha of Bhikkhus also faithfully preserved. So it seems there is indeed a self within which to take refuge which is not really a self?

I take refuge in me which I am not...

Regards

k
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acinteyyo
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by acinteyyo »

"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.

"And how, Ananda, is a bhikkhu an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge?

"When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world; when he dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, the mind in the mind, and mental objects in mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; having the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge.

"Those bhikkhus of mine, Ananda, who now or after I am gone, abide as an island unto themselves, as a refuge unto themselves, seeking no other refuge; having the Dhamma as their island and refuge, seeking no other refuge: it is they who will become the highest, 20 if they have the desire to learn."
(DN 16)

do not take refuge in yourself but be refuge unto yourself

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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christopher:::
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by christopher::: »

Ngawang Drolma wrote:
Nobody can actually give me protection. I must help myself by clearly understanding what I have to take up and what I have to get rid of. I have to find this out myself and then do it, and that the true practice of Dharma. It is through the practice of Dharma that I create the causes and conditions for my own happiness and for achieving wisdom, compassion, and the ability to help others.
Chris wrote:
33. "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.
I could be wrong, but it sounds like this is a two part equation.

Step one- we are each, even though unenlightened, still responsible. Yes, the self is an illusion of sorts, anatta, but that unenlightened self is also responsible. Its the actions, intentions, kamma of our "self" that reaps the future--- we are each (step two here) responsible for putting the dhamma into practice. The dhamma that the Buddha taught, which can be found within ourselves, also, maybe?

If so, i think we call that Buddha Nature, in Mahayana...

:anjali:
Last edited by christopher::: on Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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imagemarie
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by imagemarie »

This might be an irrelevant thought.. forgive me. :smile:

But when I was first pregnant many years ago I felt, for the first time (and perhaps uniquely), that "I" had to take a backseat.
A surrender of sorts. I felt "my" "self" as process, in which I had to trust. I felt that all was well and that all manner
of things would be well!

This profound recognition of process..of intelligence...of mind...I don't know what name to give this "knowing", but is "this" not
some sort of "refuge"? I feel I should be putting everything, "everything" in inverted commas here!!

I dunno.Seems there's a lot of tail-chasing going on. Self/other.. Anatta/atta.

And that this is unavoidable. :juggling:
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Rui Sousa
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Re: Refuge in Oneself

Post by Rui Sousa »

In my understanding of anatta we are a bundle of five aggregates, but we do exist.

There is no self in that existence, but the existence is real. That existence has the means to attain final liberation, we can take the three jewels as our refuge and trust that we are capable of achieving that liberation.

So I see no incoherence in saying that we are inlands who depend only in our ability to see the truth, and at the same time that there is no self.
With Metta
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